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  #16  
Old 25-01-20, 04:52 PM
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Fair enough, just wondered, the mark does appear to differ in detail than the mark on the reverse of the cap badges in this thread.
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  #17  
Old 25-01-20, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
did they make silver cap badges?
"Lawson & Co are mentioned in Glasgow Assay Office records between 1903 and 1934 although they may have been producing silver as early as 1891.

...... by 1968 had moved to 59 Bath Street, Glasgow, listed as Lawson & Co Ltd, jewellers & silversmiths. "

Is it possible/probable that they made 'custom' items .
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  #18  
Old 25-01-20, 05:24 PM
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I would think most jewellers did accept commissions back in those days as long as the customer was willing to pay their charges, but, I doubt the cap badges in this thread marked L&Co were made by a provincial jeweller.

There are an awful lot of these badges to regiments and corps across the whole army, they all seem to have the same copper wire loops and I've yet to see an example with a complete set of hallmarks from any cycle, they all seem to have simply been marked sterling, with few exceptions.
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  #19  
Old 25-01-20, 08:51 PM
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It might be irrelevant - apropos silver badges - that Lawson does not appear in the list of badge manufacturers during the 1st WW that Ticker Riley painstakingly compiled.
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  #20  
Old 26-01-20, 07:33 AM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Sorry, I don't understand, where is the actual evidence?
Hi Frank
Sorry, maybe you misunderstood. The post from Simon seemed fairly certain that the 'L&Co' was for Liberty and Co. I bowed to his superior knowledge as I really don't know much about this and assumed it was correct. Now with this thread it seems I was wrong and it may be a different supplier. Lawson seems a reasonable and more likely solution but again, we have no real proof as yet. Hopefully some more evidence will surface, and maybe other marks as well, which is the point of this thread.
Cheers,
Alex
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  #21  
Old 26-01-20, 09:29 AM
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I think that is certainly relevant and does not surprise me, the Lawson mark appears to differ from that under discussion in this thread and again, I would be very surprised if a provincial jeweller was actually making such a diverse range of officers cap badges, everything from Foot Guards cap stars to the various Corps.


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It might be irrelevant - apropos silver badges - that Lawson does not appear in the list of badge manufacturers during the 1st WW that Ticker Riley painstakingly compiled.
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  #22  
Old 26-01-20, 12:19 PM
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Interesting but confusing topic.

So far 3 "suggestions" for L&Co mark.

1. Liberty & Co - No proof (verification) that they used this mark and it is not shown as one of the marks they used on numerous silver/jewellery sites.

Quote:
The mark on the rear is not the maker, but the retailer.
So who actually made the badges ?


2. Ludlow - No proof (verification) that they used this mark and it is not shown as one of the marks they used on numerous silver/jewellery sites.

Quote:
I now strongly suspect that L&Co was actually simply another mark used by Ludlow
Quote:
I don't think the L&Co maker mark is Ludlow and is likely to be a private commision by another silversmith.

3.Lawson & Co - As above , no proof but could it be "simply another mark" used by them ( 5 variations shown on silversmith's site) ?.

Quote:
I would think most jewellers did accept commissions back in those days as long as the customer was willing to pay their charges, but, I doubt the cap badges in this thread marked L&Co were made by a provincial jeweller.

I would be very surprised if a provincial jeweller was actually making such a diverse range of officers cap badges

Was Glasgow considered 'provincial' to Borders Reg/Scottish officers ?


They may not have made a "diverse range" but as jewellers/silversmiths is it not possible that they made a few "private commissions" ? I am also wondering why neither of the badges has a proper hallmark ?

Quote:
Lawson does not appear in the list of badge manufacturers during the 1st WW that Ticker Riley painstakingly compiled.
Would a jeweller/silversmith be counted as a manufacturer if they only made a limited number of "private commissions" ? Does the list contain any other "manufacturer" that used the 'L&Co' mark being discussed (if not why not) ?

It is coming up for 3 years since the first thread about the Border Regiment badge was started and yet there is still no definative answer to the question of who made the badge ......... perhaps there never will be !

Photos - 2 x Badges , 2 x Ludlow , 1 x Lawson .
Attached Images
File Type: jpg L&Co A.jpg (30.7 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg L&Co B.jpg (35.7 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg L&Co C.jpg (34.9 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg L&Co D.jpg (60.7 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg L&Co E.jpg (2.9 KB, 3 views)
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  #23  
Old 26-01-20, 01:39 PM
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These two do not differ in any significant way, one example is well worn, the other, less so, the example on the left is marked L&Co, Sterling, the worn example on the right is marked Ludlow, London, Sterling.
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File Type: jpg P1030453.jpg (68.8 KB, 18 views)
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  #24  
Old 26-01-20, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
These two do not differ in any significant way, one example is well worn, the other, less so, the example on the left is marked L&Co, Sterling, the worn example on the right is marked Ludlow, London, Sterling.
Can we see the marks ?
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  #25  
Old 26-01-20, 02:01 PM
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With regard to Liberty & Co, I think you have answered your own question really, but, did they actually make or sell cap badges?

I do think that Ludlow are likely to have made them and used that particular L&Co mark, which does differ from other similar marks, neither used a full set of hallmarks from any cycle, both have copper loops, they all seem to be from a similar period in time and some are from identical dies.

Lawson would be unlikely in my opinion, Glasgow is certainly provincial as far as jewellers are concerned, the range of badges is a factor and the mark used is distinct without variation, moreover, I would say we are not talking about a few private commissions either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_vee View Post
Interesting but confusing topic.

So far 3 "suggestions" for L&Co mark.

1. Liberty & Co - No proof (verification) that they used this mark and it is not shown as one of the marks they used on numerous silver/jewellery sites.



So who actually made the badges ?


2. Ludlow - No proof (verification) that they used this mark and it is not shown as one of the marks they used on numerous silver/jewellery sites.






3.Lawson & Co - As above , no proof but could it be "simply another mark" used by them ( 5 variations shown on silversmith's site) ?.




Was Glasgow considered 'provincial' to Borders Reg/Scottish officers ?


They may not have made a "diverse range" but as jewellers/silversmiths is it not possible that they made a few "private commissions" ? I am also wondering why neither of the badges has a proper hallmark ?



Would a jeweller/silversmith be counted as a manufacturer if they only made a limited number of "private commissions" ? Does the list contain any other "manufacturer" that used the 'L&Co' mark being discussed (if not why not) ?

It is coming up for 3 years since the first thread about the Border Regiment badge was started and yet there is still no definative answer to the question of who made the badge ......... perhaps there never will be !

Photos - 2 x Badges , 2 x Ludlow , 1 x Lawson .
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  #26  
Old 26-01-20, 02:10 PM
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Yes, you can, I'll find them.

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Originally Posted by mike_vee View Post
Can we see the marks ?
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  #27  
Old 26-01-20, 02:19 PM
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The worn Ludlow, is marked Sterling on the reverse of the crown, Ludlow on the left reverse of the tank and London on the right reverse of the tank.
The L&Co is marked Sterling on the lower right reverse of the wreath and L&Co on the lower left reverse of the wreath, it is interesting to note the Sterling stamps are identical, as are materials used and badges dimensions.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1030495.jpg (35.4 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg P1030496.jpg (47.8 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg P1030497.jpg (40.9 KB, 19 views)
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  #28  
Old 26-01-20, 02:53 PM
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OK Frank , I'm now 99% convinced you're right .

But the 1% still wonders when and where the lozenge shaped (angular corners) mark was in use.
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  #29  
Old 26-01-20, 03:03 PM
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Well, to be quite honest, they are only bits of silver, I really do not care if I'm right, but, on the balance of probability, if they are not one and the same, then it must be coincidental that Ludlow used the dies of L&Co as well as whosoever L&Co actually were, that the letter L featured as the first letter of their name.

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Originally Posted by mike_vee View Post
OK Frank , I'm now 99% convinced you're right .

But the 1% still wonders when and where the lozenge shaped (angular corners) mark was in use.
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  #30  
Old 26-01-20, 03:06 PM
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I have to say that I wonder that too, do you think just pre war?
The issue is that they are never assayed with a date letter from any cycle of marks.


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OK Frank , I'm now 99% convinced you're right .

But the 1% still wonders when and where the lozenge shaped (angular corners) mark was in use.
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