LRDG

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Steve Conway

Hi all,

Here are some photos of the LRDG badge I bought from Shane Aumua which Atilla is referring to.

Regards
Steve

Cheers Steve, thanks for sharing your rare example of an early issue die-stamped LRDG badge. I have only seen it in its glass frame, so nice to finally see it from the back. The flash pictures certainly show the detail.

Cheers
Brent

[silverwash]

"To answer your question, no I am not inferring that they are not of war time manufacture.
What I am saying is that it is very likely that many of the die cast LRDG badges that are featured on this forum were never issued during the war. "

not being an aficionado of all things desert I assume that some were issued to
personnel. as opposed to yes they were made but never dished out.

[Slinky Cat]

Originally Posted by lifeochil

Thanks for the photos Steve. Is it my eyesight or are there significant differences between this badge and the one Steve Wende sold on ebay? I'd suggest there are significant differences both front and back.

Chalk and cheese as they say

Nothing like each other

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by silverwash

"To answer your question, no I am not inferring that they are not of war time manufacture.
What I am saying is that it is very likely that many of the die cast LRDG badges that are featured on this forum were never issued during the war. "

not being an aficionado of all things desert I assume that some were issued to
personnel. as opposed to yes they were made but never dished out.

The die-stamped LRDG badge in post #41 that belonged to Major-General D. L. Lloyd Owen, and the die-stamped LRDG badges in posts #52 and post #59, would have been made in Egypt.

However, the die-cast LRDG badges in post #3, there is a high probability the may have been made in Italy.

When the LRDG ceased to exist on 1st August 1945, David Lloyd Owen collected all the unissued badges and cloth shoulder titles and placed them into a bag. It is my understanding that DLO handed out badges to LRDG veterans who had lost or had their badges stolen.
After DLO died the bag of badges was passed to a family member, inside the bag was DLOs business card which DLO had written the following on the back –
“These cap badges were those remaining in the QM’s Stores of the LRDG when disbanded in 1945.”
(I do have pictures of this card)

The first lot of LRDG Stores badges were sold thru a well known dealer who sold them at bargain prices, oddly enough, Shaun Aumua contacted me at the time and said I should get one before they sold out, and that he was going to buy a second one to sell so it pays for the first.
So had a good laugh to myself when Luke H in post #23, posted a link To Shaun’s album and his die-cast LRDG badge saying – “There are plenty of images (front and back) of good LRDG badges on here.”

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by lifeochil

Thanks for the photos Steve. Is it my eyesight or are there significant differences between this badge and the one Steve Wende sold on ebay? I'd suggest there are significant differences both front and back.

Originally Posted by Slinky Cat

Chalk and cheese as they say
Nothing like each other

I have pictures of one more die-stamped LRDG badge to post, perhaps after that we can match some pictures.

[silverwash]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

The die-stamped LRDG badge in post #41 that belonged to Major-General D. L. Lloyd Owen, and the die-stamped LRDG badges in posts #52 and post #59, would have been made in Egypt.

However, the die-cast LRDG badges in post #3, there is a high probability the may have been made in Italy.

When the LRDG ceased to exist on 1st August 1945, David Lloyd Owen collected all the unissued badges and cloth shoulder titles and placed them into a bag. It is my understanding that DLO handed out badges to LRDG veterans who had lost or had their badges stolen.
After DLO died the bag of badges was passed to a family member, inside the bag was DLOs business card which DLO had written the following on the back –
“These cap badges were those remaining in the QM’s Stores of the LRDG when disbanded in 1945.”
(I do have pictures of this card)

The first lot of LRDG Stores badges were sold thru a well known dealer who sold them at bargain prices, oddly enough, Shaun Aumua contacted me at the time and said I should get one before they sold out, and that he was going to buy a second one to sell so it pays for the first.
So had a good laugh to myself when Luke H in post #23, posted a link To Shaun’s album and his die-cast LRDG badge saying – “There are plenty of images (front and back) of good LRDG badges on here.”

thank you for info. water a bit clearer now.

[lifeochil]

The thread has gone from opinions on two items including a shoulder title which hardly anyone discusses to different variations of LRDG badges.
So far the badges shown by supporters of Steve Wende's LRDG badge have produced photos of badges that are poles apart from his.
Now the 'experts' can possibly tell me how many variations of LRDG badges there were or if they don't know.
I'm yet to be convinced that either item is genuine.

[fairlie63]

Originally Posted by lifeochil

The thread has gone from opinions on two items including a shoulder title which hardly anyone discusses to different variations of LRDG badges.
So far the badges shown by supporters of Steve Wende's LRDG badge have produced photos of badges that are poles apart from his.
Now the 'experts' can possibly tell me how many variations of LRDG badges there were or if they don't know.
I'm yet to be convinced that either item is genuine.

I guess nobody is discussing the shoulder title because it was very quickly dismissed as fake. I presume the vendor withdrew it from sale in respect of those opinions.

I have not yet seen one of the forum members who have contributed to this thread declare themselves as an 'expert'.

What they are trying to do in a mature manner is pool their knowledge in order to establish when and where the badge in post 1 might have originated, and if it is genuine. That is in the spirit of the forum.

What I do note is that there are three posters on this thread who have never contributed to this or any other thread with worthwhile information but have restricted themselves to dishing anybody else's contributions to the forum on the basis that they know 'other uber-collectors'.

This thread is the forum at its best, members contributing as much information and knowledge as they can to assist clarification of the original post. Along the way we are all learning new information even though most of us will never be interested in collecting to the LRDG.

Thank you to those members who have taken the time to post a response in order to assist a resolution to the original question.

Regards,
Keith

[lifeochil]

Originally Posted by fairlie63

I guess nobody is discussing the shoulder title because it was very quickly dismissed as fake. I presume the vendor withdrew it from sale in respect of those opinions.

Read the receipt Keith, it came from the same seller. Not likely to the second part.

What they are trying to do in a mature manner is pool their knowledge in order to establish when and where the badge in post 1 might have originated, and if it is genuine. That is in the spirit of the forum.

Edyc7 has already said he believes it's genuine.

What I do note is that there are three posters on this thread who have never contributed to this or any other thread with worthwhile information but have restricted themselves to dishing anybody else's contributions to the forum on the basis that they know 'other uber-collectors'.

Uber collectors. That's a very good description of them, if only you knew. Maybe reread my post on page four where I said "Thanks for the photos Steve."

This thread is the forum at its best, members contributing as much information and knowledge as they can to assist clarification of the original post. Along the way we are all learning new information even though most of us will never be interested in collecting to the LRDG.

I like learning and the badges being posted are great but so far the badges shown have significant differences between them and the badge sold by Steve Wende on ebay. So the questions should be.
1) Why are there so many differences between the badge sold on ebay and the ones posted here?
2) The badge was meant to have originally been bought from a veteran but no-one can name the veteran?

I question a lot of things because that's how you get to the facts if it's possible to get to them.

[Edyc7]

Originally Posted by lifeochil

Read the receipt Keith, it came from the same seller. Not likely to the second part.

Edyc7 has already said he believes it's genuine.

Uber collectors. That's a very good description of them, if only you knew. Maybe reread my post on page four where I said "Thanks for the photos Steve."

I like learning and the badges being posted are great but so far the badges shown have significant differences between them and the badge sold by Steve Wende on ebay. So the questions should be.
1) Why are there so many differences between the badge sold on ebay and the ones posted here?
2) The badge was meant to have originally been bought from a veteran but no-one can name the veteran?

I question a lot of things because that's how you get to the facts if it's possible to get to them.

In answer to your first question, the Steve Wende badge whose outer lip is filed away is a Sand Cast variant as is the badge(left) depicted in my post #35 and also mentioned in “LRDG RHODESIA” post #46

The second badge(right) in post #35, is a Die-Stamped variant as are those in posts #52 and #59

Edy

[lifeochil]

Originally Posted by Edyc7

In answer to your first question, the Steve Wende badge whose outer lip is filed away is a Sand Cast variant as is the badge(left) depicted in my post #35 and also mentioned in “LRDG RHODESIA” post #46

The second badge(right) in post #35, is a Die-Stamped variant as are those in posts #52 and #59

Edy

Thanks for the explanation. Now I have these questions and observations.
1) Sand Cast variant as is the badge(left) depicted in your post #35 and also mentioned in “LRDG RHODESIA” post #46 & the badge sold by Steve Wende on ebay are all different. They all have significant differences between them.
2) As these are all 'variants' then how many variants were there of LRDG sand cast badges? It appears that because we have three LRDG badges as sand cast then there are at least three different variants. That is if the one sold by Wende is genuine. Atillathenunns is sceptical that the one in the LRDG book is sand cast.
3) Except for Steve Wende's badge I don't think I've see the backs of other sand cast badges.

As Kiwi ric said on another thread "a true sandcast lrdg badge would be a very rare find indeed."

[Luke H]

Apologies for the late reply. I maintain my original opinion on the origin of the badge in question.

As a point of clarity and technicality, catching up I’ve read numerous posts in this thread referring to ‘die stamped’ badges. Not a single badge shown in this thread is die stamped.

A die stamped badge is made from a male and reverse detail female die striking metal. The badges shown in post #59 are ‘die cast’ not die struck. Whereas the badge that is the subject of this thread is ‘sand cast’ from a die cast badge.

[Keith Blakeman]

And after 72 posts I’m still none the wiser as to which of all the badges posted is supposed to be genuine.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

And after 72 posts I’m still none the wiser as to which of all the badges posted is supposed to be genuine.

We’ve even left the EU in all that time!

[Edyc7]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Well played sir, I am pretty sure I know who you are, would you be so kind to provide better pictures of the back please?

Hi Brent
Here is a day light photo of the back of the DLO sand cast badge.
On closer examination one can see molten metal run off. Could this be because the shrinkage cavity was filled in with molten metal? See post #3 below.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ead.php?t=9982

The sand cast badges existed for a very brief period. I am of the opinion that there may have been some testing or experimenting going on as many of these have broken off lugs.