great grandad with his ribbons pre 1920

[ajw64]

Hi to all
this is pic of relative who served with the 12th
btn east surrey rgt
known to have served in the boer with the same rgt
to which btn is unclear any help on the medal ribbons
or any other info would be great

thanks for taking the time to read this

Regards

Alan

[rockape560]

hi,

the first medal looks like the india general service medal but im no expert.
looks like a fob of some kind hanging from his breast pocket that looks interesting if someone could id it

philip

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by ajw64

Hi to all
this is pic of relative who served with the 12th
btn east surrey rgt
known to have served in the boer with the same rgt
to which btn is unclear any help on the medal ribbons
or any other info would be great

thanks for taking the time to read this

Regards

Alan

Yes he is wearing the special Bermondsey Arms collar badges of the 12th (Bermondsey) Battalion East Surrey Regt (see enclosed photo). If he served in the Boer War it was probably with a composite company formed from both Militia and Volunteer Battalions of the East Surreys (usually 100 suitable (i.e. fit and active) volunteers from each battalion) who were attached to the Regular battalions as supplementary companies.

As well as the volunteers from the Militia, some men from the 5th and 6th Volunteer Battalions volunteered for South Africa and both units were subsequently awarded the battle honour South Africa 1900-02. In typical British fashion, men from the Militia tended to be from the working class while the volunteer battalions recruited mostly from the middle classes.

The 12th East Surreys were raised on 14th May 1915 by the Mayor and Borough of Bermondsey, and in October the battalion joined 122nd Brigade, 41st Division, the last of the Kitchener divisions. It remained in the same brigade throughout the war. A year later, May 1916, the division arrived in France where the battalion served until November 1917, when they were sent to Italy. In March 1918 they returned to France where the battalion remained for the rest of the war. As an experienced man your relative might well have been utilised as an instructor when the 12th Battalion was forming up.

[ajw64]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Yes he is wearing the special Bermondsey Arms collar badges of the 12th (Bermondsey) Battalion East Surrey Regt (see enclosed photo). If he served in the Boer War it was probably with a composite company formed from Militia and Volunteer Battalions of the East Surreys (usually 100 suitable (i.e. fit and active) volunteers from each battalion).

The 12th East Surreys were raised on 14th May 1915 by the Mayor and Borough of Bermondsey, and in October the battalion joined 122nd Brigade, 41st Division, the last of the Kitchener divisions. It remained in the same brigade throughout the war. A year later, May 1916, the division arrived in France where the battalion served until November 1917, when they were sent to Italy. In March 1918 they returned to France where the battalion remained for the rest of the war.

Toby many thanks

All the best
Alan

[Tinto]

Hi Alan,
Did your relative win the Distinguished Conduct Medal? The first ribbon looks similar.
Cheers, Tinto

[ajw64]

Originally Posted by Tinto

Hi Alan,
Did your relative win the Distinguished Conduct Medal? The first ribbon looks similar.
Cheers, Tinto

hi tinto
i would not know?
but would like to find out
that ribbon has caused a headache or two

thanks for the reply

Alan

[Arthur R]

Originally Posted by ajw64

hi tinto
i would not know?
but would like to find out
that ribbon has caused a headache or two

thanks for the reply

Alan

Hi Alan

Based on the battalion service details provided by Toby Purcell, I'd hazard a guess that the ribbons might be:

1 - ??
2 - Queen's South Africa Medal (for Anglo-Boer War)
3 - British War Medal (for WW I)
4 - Victory Medal (for WW I).

You could check the London Gazette to see if your great-granddad was awarded the DCM. It's available online at
http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/hom...geotype=London
and it has a good search facility.

[Arthur R]

Hi Alan

After further thought, I'd think there could be three possible combinations:

A
1 - Distinguished Conduct Medal
2 - Queen's South Africa Medal (for Anglo-Boer War)
3 - British War Medal (for WW I)
4 - Victory Medal (for WW I)

B
1 - Queen's SA Medal
2 - King's SA Medal (for Anglo-Boer War - but he would have had to serve for 18 months and still be in SA when the war ended)
3 - British War Medal
4 - Victory Medal

C
1 - Queen's SA Medal
2 - 1914-15 Star (but he would have had to have entered an operational area before the end of 1915)
3 - British War Medal
4 - Victory Medal.

Colour pics of these ribbons attached.

You may be able to locate your great-granddad's service file at the National Archives in Kew. That ought to indicate his medals.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Arthur R

Hi Alan

After further thought, I'd think there could be three possible combinations:

A
1 - Distinguished Conduct Medal
2 - Queen's South Africa Medal (for Anglo-Boer War)
3 - British War Medal (for WW I)
4 - Victory Medal (for WW I)

B
1 - Queen's SA Medal
2 - King's SA Medal (for Anglo-Boer War - but he would have had to serve for 18 months and still be in SA when the war ended)
3 - British War Medal
4 - Victory Medal

C
1 - Queen's SA Medal
2 - 1914-15 Star (but he would have had to have entered an operational area before the end of 1915)
3 - British War Medal
4 - Victory Medal.

Colour pics of these ribbons attached.

You may be able to locate your great-granddad's service file at the National Archives in Kew. That ought to indicate his medals.

Your 'A' combination looks very similar to the photo and if it is correct there should be a record of his DCM citation.

[ajw64]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Your 'A' combination looks very similar to the photo and if it is correct there should be a record of his DCM citation.

Many thanks Toby

[grumpy]

Two matters arising, please.

The recognition of medal ribbons in the period up to c. 1925 [when panchromatic film became the norm] is fraught because the rendering of orthochromatic film is wildly skewed. As a general rule, the red end of the spectrum comes out darkest grey or black, and then down through orange and yellow still dark, and greens and certainly blues are rendered pale grey.
The Great War Forum has some experts on this, such as 4th Gordons. My first thought for the soldier depicted was indeed DCM, having studied men such photos.

The other matter, for Toby, is Militia making up composite companies for the SA war 1899-1902. I have the regs. [as an AO] for the VF men [interest arose from the regimental numbering provisions which were bizarre] but nothing regarding Militia service. I am away from home for a few days so my references not available but would be grateful for a bit of insight eg. were the Militia and VF really mixed in one company within a regular battalion, and did the Militiamen retain their Militia numbers whereas the VF did not?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

Two matters arising, please.

The recognition of medal ribbons in the period up to c. 1925 [when panchromatic film became the norm] is fraught because the rendering of orthochromatic film is wildly skewed. As a general rule, the red end of the spectrum comes out darkest grey or black, and then down through orange and yellow still dark, and greens and certainly blues are rendered pale grey.
The Great War Forum has some experts on this, such as 4th Gordons. My first thought for the soldier depicted was indeed DCM, having studied men such photos.

The other matter, for Toby, is Militia making up composite companies for the SA war 1899-1902. I have the regs. [as an AO] for the VF men [interest arose from the regimental numbering provisions which were bizarre] but nothing regarding Militia service. I am away from home for a few days so my references not available but would be grateful for a bit of insight eg. were the Militia and VF really mixed in one company within a regular battalion, and did the Militiamen retain their Militia numbers whereas the VF did not?

I do not have any knowledge of regimental numbering for Militia or VF whatsoever and thus cannot comment on that aspect.

As regards the mixed companies I am merely quoting what I have read (but I have not retained references, just the information). My understanding of what I read was that where contingents from a particular VF unit were strong then they formed stand alone VF companies, unsullied by Militia. Where the numbers of VF were insufficient then in a few cases they were leavened by individual Militia volunteers into a mixed company. There was a degree of pragmatism as each regiment had different circumstances and the key requirement was formed sub-units to supplement hard pressed regulars, who often had both battalions deployed. In the case of both of these manpower resources acts of parliament had to be passed before VF and Militia could legally deploy as 'volunteers' (only - i.e. without compulsion) on operations outside of Great Britain. Large and self contained battalions of Militia also deployed, whereas for Volunteer battalions it was usually only one company representative of each (although some regiments provided more - there are always exceptions).

On the 18 December the War Office also committed the Volunteer Forces and a strong force from the Yeomanry and a contingent of carefully selected officers and other ranks of Rifle Volunteer Corps was promulgated on 2 January 1900. The contingents from the Rifle Volunteer Corps were to be formed as Service Companies, each of a strengtth of 114, including four officers and were to be attached to regular battalions at the front to make up for such of their companies that had been converted into Mounted Infantry.

[Jibba Jabba]

I think the medal experts on the forum will be able to provide you with an accurate medal entitlement if you were to disclose the name of the man.

[Toby Purcell]

The war was almost unique in that there was such a large number of former regular soldiers discharged to the Army Reserve, Militia battalions and Volunteer battalions, all of which were mobilised to a large degree. Members of volunteer battalions did just that, they volunteered in large numbers, including some for front line duty, but there was some opposition to it until the embodied Militia reserve had been exhausted. All Militia were originally only intended for home service. For cavalry militia the problem was solved by the creation of the Imperial Yeomanry into which Militia Cavalrymen could enlist in order to serve in SA.

The mobilisation of Militia needed an official order of embodiment into the Army, the first of which was announcement Nov 27 1899 in the Times.

Entitled “The Embodiment of The Militia”, it stated, “Orders have been issued for Militia units called up for embodiment to join their respective headquarters as follows:- On Monday, December 4.- [Militia/reserve Bns of five regiments listed]. On Tuesday December 5.- [Militia/reserve Bns of ten regiments listed.
On Wednesday December 6.- 4th Batt. West Yorkshire Regt [another 5 regiments mentioned]…”

The list went on to cover dates up to December 18th and the Militia/reserve battalions of a further 22 regiments. The 3rd Batt Yorkshire Regt being in the list for the 14th December.

In the Times of the 13 Feb 1900 in an article dated 12 Feb entitled “Embarkation of Troops” and beginning:

“ Today has not been a day of Yeomanry, but rather one in which it has been possible to observe what potentialities there are in the fine old constitutional force the Militia.”
There follows an extensive listing of ships and regiments incl:- The Guelph leaving Southampton on the 17th inst., will convey 21 officers and 791 men from the Lincolne, York, Leicester, Gloucester, West Riding, York and Lancaster regiments and the Gordon Highlanders, all volunteers.

The Times, Wednesday, Feb 28, 1900; “The Militia”

“The transport Goorka, of the Union Line, left Queenstown yesterday for Cape Town, having on board a total of 50 officers and 1590 rank and file, all under the command during the passage of Lieutenant-Colonel Viscount Cranbourne of the 4th Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment (Hertfordshire Militia). There embarked at Queenstown 24 officers and 483 rank and file of the 4th Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment, 36 officers and 480 rank and file of the 3rd Battalion West Riding Regiment (6th West York Militia) Lieutenant-Colonel Wyllie in command. ….”

In the days before the Welfare State, the Militia had a reputation as a safety net for the urban and rural poor. The retainer paid for part time service was useful in times of economic hardship or when harvests were bad. In time of war, a militia unit could be embodied (mobilised), but its members were not liable for overseas service unless they so wished.

A good example of how this worked can be seen by examining the Leicestershire Militia at that time. Twice during the Boer War the Leicestershire Militia was embodied, and on both occasions its members offered their services overseas. On the first occasion this was declined, the battalion instead being posted to the Curragh Camp in Ireland. The second time the offer was accepted and the battalion was ordered to South Africa to take over blockhouse lines intended to pen in the roving Boer Commandos from their domestic support in the closing stages of the War.

[Toby Purcell]

On 26th October 1899 Her Majesty Queen Victoria was graciously pleased to order the Secretary of State to give the necessary instructions for embodying all or any part of the Militia. Accordingly instructions were issued in Special Army Order dated 3rd November, republished as Army Order 203 (a) of December 1899 and by 2nd April 1900 thirty-five Militia battalions out of the forty approached to volunteer for foreign service had embarked. More embodiment orders were to follow. No special inducements were offered to volunteers who received a £5 gratuity and, if wounded, came under the Pensions Acts to be treated as if they were Regular Army. During the course of his evidence to the Elgin Commission Major-General H.C. Borrett, who in October 1899 had been Inspector-General of Auxiliary Forces, stated the principles upon which he called up Militia battalions for service in South Africa:

"I tried to treat everybody equally and, first of all I had to be guided by strength, it was obvious that it was no use calling up a battalion that was not of sufficient strength to be sent abroad. I may mention the Devons, the Exeter Battalion, the Colonel of which came to see me a great many times asking if it was not time for calling up his regiment but I could not do it for they were not strong enough to go to South Africa. The second thing was that I tried to make everything fair; I did not then know how long the War was going on and I thought in the meantime I ought to treat everybody fairly and I always tried to call up a fair proportion of English, of Scotch and of Irish. In the first instance, when I was told to get regiments for South Africa, the order was for nine battalions for foreign service and I then called for seven English, one Irish and one Scotch. The Scotch battalion would not go so I selected another Scotch to make it fair. I was also guided by another fact that. I did not like to take too many Militia battalions from the same county. The best Militia battalions, as far as strength go, are in Lancashire and I called up a good many Lancashire regiments and sent them abroad, and there were a good many more Lancashire Militia battalions which I should have been very glad to send abroad but I did not send them because I thought it was hardly fair on the county of Lancashire. For instance there are the Manchesters, two very good strong battalions, that I did not send out because I had already sent out the Lancasters, the South Lancashires and the Lancashire Fusiliers, and so many others, that I thought it would rather dislocate trade if I took everybody from one county and nobody from another. I wanted to give everybody a fair chance and I wanted to spread the opportunity of volunteering all over England, Ireland and Scotland as much as I could. That is what guided me in the selection. "

During the course of the War no less than sixty battalions were to serve in South Africa. Two more, 4th Gloucestershires and 3rd Wiltshires, served on St. Helena guarding Boer prisoners; 3rd Seaforth Highlanders went to Egypt, whilst 5th Northumberland Fusiliers, 3rd West Yorkshires, 3rd Royal West Kents, 3rd Yorkshire Light Infantry and 5th Royal Munster Fusiliers went to Malta to relieve Regular battalions for active service. The 3rd Loyal North Lancashires embarked for Malta on 29th November 1899 and moved to South Africa on 2nd March 1901; whilst 3rd Royal Sussex left South Africa for St. Helena on 19th June 1902. The personnel involved totalled 1,691 officers and 43,875 men. In addition, 14,000 Militia Reservists served with their affiliated Line battalions. An example being those Militia Reservists from the 3rd Bn. Royal Welsh Fusiliers who, by 8th December 1899, were already serving with the 1st Bn. of Regulars in South Africa. Others went out in reinforcement drafts such as the fifteen men who sailed in the SS Gaika on 17th March 1900 and who also joined 1st Bn. RWF. These Militiamen were to fight at Rooidam where a frontal assault by 1st RWF and 2nd Bn. Royal Fusiliers forced a Boer retreat. Some Militia Reservists were to serve at home and abroad in administrative capacities not necessarily with their own regiments. There was a shortage of trained junior officers which was resolved by recruiting 'suitable young gentlemen and sending them out without any training whatsoever', whilst to keep units up to strength, other ranks as young as eighteen could be sent out even though Regulars had to be at least twenty years of age. Militiamen had basic training and, usually, three or four weeks at the annual camp. They were regarded as a source of reserves for the Regular Army and as second-line troops who could be sent on active service without intensive training. Whilst arguably that may have been appropriate where battle lines were clearly drawn and second line forces could be employed in the rear areas, such conditions did not apply in the open spaces of South Africa where Boer commandos moved quickly and struck where and when they spotted an opportunity. Consequently any British soldier was liable to find himself in action or required to march quickly to aid comrades under attack.

Safeguarding the lines of communication which stretched over the vast distances was a vital task. The railway from Cape Town via De Aar and Kimberley to Mafeking stretched for 870 miles. The Cape Town line via Norval's Pont. Bloemfontein and Johannesburg to Pretoria covered 1040 miles and from there ran on to Pietersburg. Lines from Port Elizabeth and East London ran west to link up with the Cape Town to Pietersburg line and in the Transvaal a line ran 395 miles from Delagoa Bay via Komati Poort to Pretoria and Johannesburg. Another one from Durban ran via Ladysmith, Newcastle and Laing's Nek for 511 miles to Pretoria and Johannesburg. All were subject to attack with bridges and sections of track being destroyed or damaged. Key junctions at De Aar and Stromberg in Cape Colony required strong garrisons whilst in the immense areas away from the railway system, garrison towns such as Ermelo, a base for sweeps up to the Swaziland border, and Lindley which also provided mobile patrols and was a staging post for sweeps, required supplies conveyed by convoy. Such a convoy of, say, seventy wagons each one being drawn by sixteen oxen, was about two miles long, moved at about three miles an hour and required a considerable escort as it could be subjected to sniper fire or a sudden attack resulting in a running fight. Later, as Kitchener squeezed the Boers' ability to manoeuvre, some 8000 blockhouses, covering over 3,700 miles were built and manned; each blockhouse being garrisoned by upwards of seven men. All of which required large amounts of manpower which the Militia helped to provide.