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  #1  
Old 10-10-11, 12:56 PM
Antrim82 Antrim82 is offline
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Default Mystery Canadian 'Naval' style firefighters badge

Can Anybody identify the attached badge which was aquired some 12 years ago in a mixed batch of RN , RCN and USN rate badges from a US Dealer.

Obviously it is Canadian but I know its not regular RCN, however the design and construction are identical to the rate badges of the 1950-60's.

The design is I believe crossed 'Fire Horns' so I assume its a Firefighters badge of some sort. Is it from the Naval Fire Service I know they did wear standard naval uniform at around this time.

Any help would be appreciated.
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File Type: jpg scan0001 (5).jpg (34.0 KB, 24 views)

Last edited by Antrim82; 10-10-11 at 12:58 PM. Reason: Typo in title
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  #2  
Old 11-10-11, 01:01 PM
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This badge has been around since at least the early 50's, it was likely worn by the RCN Fire Service. I have never seen it is Red embroidery or Gold wire tho. I expect it was worn on the working dress blue shirts as worn by the RCN.

The RCN Fire Service wore a uniform consiting of a black battledress top & pants, blue or white shirts, with a peaked cap with firefighter insignia. These firefighters were civilians, not RCN ratings.

Altho I recall the RCN Fire Service - they gave regular lectures in the living blocks on fire safety (these wartime blocks were all wood construction fire traps) especially during Basic at Cornwallis - I never saw any of them wearing this badge tho.

I have a few of the RCN Catalogue of Material & have never seen the badge illustrated.

Bryan

Last edited by RCN; 12-10-11 at 12:38 PM.
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  #3  
Old 15-10-11, 10:55 PM
Antrim82 Antrim82 is offline
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Thanks Bryan.
I have seen photographs of the RCN fire service online in both square rig from the 40's and the later battledress uniform you describe but never in sufficient detail to identify any badges. What I did notice in one photo was a white patch on the upper left sleeve of a single individual in battledress which may indicate a blue on white badge being worn with this style of uniform.
I always thought the Maple leaf and ‘Canada’ was a bit of overkill which made me wonder if it was a badge produced either for use overseas or for an international competition. Obviously one for further investigation.

Thanks again
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Old 15-10-11, 11:36 PM
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Hello Antrim....


You have a couple discrepancies here & I'll note within yrs in colour......


Thanks Bryan.
I have seen photographs of the RCN fire service online in both square rig from the 40's
(the maple leaf came in in 1949-50 period when the RCN trade badge structure changed from the wartime badges to the new "Canadian ID" badges, so this badge would not have existed during the wartime period)

and the later battledress uniform you describe but never in sufficient detail to identify any badges. What I did notice in one photo was a white patch on the upper left sleeve

(Trade badges were always worn on the right sleeve.)


of a single individual in battledress which may indicate a blue on white badge being worn with this style of uniform.

(blue on white would have been worn on white uniforms or what was referred to as Number 5 working dress in the post 1950's period RCN)

I always thought the Maple leaf and ‘Canada’ was a bit of overkill which made me wonder if it was a badge produced either for use overseas or for an international competition.

(I have a similar badge with crossed Torpedos, CANADA, & maple leaf above; another mystery badge which I have never found a explanation for)


Obviously one for further investigation.

Agree - hopefully someone will come alone, preferably that wore the badge & educate us!

Bryan

Last edited by RCN; 15-10-11 at 11:49 PM.
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  #5  
Old 15-10-11, 11:49 PM
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Antrim I just went downstairs & had a look at my RCN badges as I was doing the post from my head & unsure if I had badge details correct ------

The Torpedo badge is actually a TAS rate with maple leaf above & CANADA below as in the Firefighter badge you posted, also done in blue embroidery.

& I also have an example of a maple leaf with CANADA below both in blue & red embroidery - this is another one I have no reliable explanation for & never seen in any of the Catalogue of Material that I have,

I will try to take a couple shots tomorrow & post.

the mystery deepens........................

Bryan
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Old 15-10-11, 11:56 PM
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Check out this photo -----

Naval Dockyard Fire Hall, Halifax 1945.

They appear to be Firefighters but in wartime RCN Ratings uniforms, no badges visible --- actually the rating on the far left appears to be wearing a Stokers rate badge.....

unable to locate any photos of the post 1950's period Firefighters in B/D.

Bryan
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File Type: jpg Naval Dockyard Fir hall HX 1945.jpg (47.2 KB, 27 views)

Last edited by RCN; 16-10-11 at 12:04 AM.
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Old 16-10-11, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCN View Post
Antrim I just went downstairs & had a look at my RCN badges as I was doing the post from my head & unsure if I had badge details correct ------

The Torpedo badge is actually a TAS rate with maple leaf above & CANADA below as in the Firefighter badge you posted, also done in blue embroidery.

& I also have an example of a maple leaf with CANADA below both in blue & red embroidery - this is another one I have no reliable explanation for & never seen in any of the Catalogue of Material that I have,

I will try to take a couple shots tomorrow & post.

the mystery deepens........................

Bryan

Here are photos of the badges mentioned in my post above:::::
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Maple leafTAS Canada.jpg (31.7 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg Maple leaf Canada bl.jpg (58.1 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg Maple leaf Canada red.jpg (40.2 KB, 4 views)
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  #8  
Old 17-10-11, 01:24 AM
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Default Blue on White

you are correct Bryan----blue on white would have been worn on white uniforms or what was referred to as Number 5 working dress in the post 1950's period RCN)
I myself wore my trade badge on my #5 working shirt and jacket

photo from Brcn 3059

notice the blue on white trade badge on #5 work dress
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File Type: jpg rigs.jpg (34.9 KB, 32 views)
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  #9  
Old 17-10-11, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonArm View Post
you are correct Bryan----blue on white would have been worn on white uniforms or what was referred to as Number 5 working dress in the post 1950's period RCN)
I myself wore my trade badge on my #5 working shirt and jacket
yes Ron I recall those days very well & even saved my old Nr 5's !

Bryan
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File Type: jpg Nr 5 dress rate.jpg (62.7 KB, 24 views)
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  #10  
Old 20-10-11, 08:40 PM
Antrim82 Antrim82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCN View Post
Here are photos of the badges mentioned in my post above:::::
Bryan,
Thanks for all your replies on this subject which have been most helpful.
Based on the photographs I have seen particularly the galleries at FireHouse651.COM it would seem to confirm that at least two dockyards during WWII had fire brigades manned by RCN personnel. This was probably on the same basis as the RN dockyards during the war years where the fire brigades were manned by a permanent cadre of Officers and Senior rates who were ex Firemen (Wearing the Stokers badge with letters FF below) and augmented by ordinary Stoker junior rates drafted in the normal course. (Stokers badge).
The later photographs of fire fighters taken in ‘battledress’ are all taken at Naval Establishments such as Air stations and show almost certainly the No 5 dress with jacket, but there is no sign of Naval personnel at the dockyards . There is also no evidence of the fire horns badge being displayed on uniforms, buildings or equipment.
As a result and on seeing your TAS badge with the Canada legend I would suggest another explanation for these two badges which is that they are probably trial patterns created around 1949-50 just after the publication of the Mainguy report with its recommendation Number 26 dealing with "Canadian Badges" My reasoning being as follows.
1. From February 1946 to publication in October 1949 the wearing of the Canada flash had officially been discontinued in the RCN and therefore there would be little interest in new badge designs with the words Canada incorporated before this date.
2. The overall design is similar and in the case of the TAS badge identical to those adopted in 1950 with the exception of the Canada legend. It may be that it was proposed to incorporate ‘Canada’ in the design simply to remove the need for the separate flash but in doing so they created a far too fussy design which was not approved.
3. The Stoker FF branch badge was discontinued by the RN in 1945 and the Dockyard Fire Brigades Civilianised. If the RCN did not follow suit they would have needed a Fire fighters badge in the new RCN badge scheme. Bearing in mind the general trend adopted of ‘North Americanising’ many of the branch devices it would be logical to adopt the civilian crossed fire horns.
4. The TAS badge was new in 1946 with the creation of the electrical branch in the RN. The RCN seems to have adopted this reorganisation and new badge at around the same time.
In both cases the trade designs were new so they would be idea candidates for trial insignia. In the event it appears that only the TAS design was adopted into the new RCN scheme as there was ultimately no requirement for the Fire fighters badge with the civilianising of the Dockyard Fire departments. The separate maple leaf and Canada Flashes might have been an alternative proposal for badges to illustrate ‘Canadian’ Identity without the need to change existing branch badges.
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Old 20-10-11, 10:58 PM
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[QUOTE=Antrim82;138433]Bryan,
Thanks for all your replies on this subject which have been most helpful.
Based on the photographs I have seen particularly the galleries at FireHouse651.COM it would seem to confirm that at least two dockyards during WWII had fire brigades manned by RCN personnel. This was probably on the same basis as the RN dockyards during the war years where the fire brigades were manned by a permanent cadre of Officers and Senior rates who were ex Firemen (Wearing the Stokers badge with letters FF below) and augmented by ordinary Stoker junior rates drafted in the normal course. (Stokers badge).
QUOTE]

I just checked out this site you have mentioned - a new one to me. I See they have a forum - perhaps if you are a member of this forum I suggest you put a post on there & ask about this "mystery" badge Antrim.

What we really need here is an old member, {& I say old as I expect not a lot if any of them around now as the RCN Fire Service been extinct for many yrs} to tell us exactly what they wore.
Perhaps there might be a survivor or two on there that could assist us, but a long shot I know.

I am just going by memory of the RCN Fire Service I recall & I dont expect it is all that accurate.

But I do thank you for your detailed speculation. However, a lot there to digest, I have to read again & will respond further.......

Bryan
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  #12  
Old 20-10-11, 11:08 PM
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Antrim,

RonArm & I have been speaking of this badge - we are both ex RCN & recall our time spent in RCN ... we both have interest in RCN insignia.

I looked up the RCN Catalogue of Material earlier & located the Naval Fire Service section & found the cap badges & buttons on issue to civilian firefighter/officers in 1962.

Ron also found it & sent me the scans, I'll show them below.

Note that the "mystery badge" is identical to the Fire Officer 2nd class cap badge minus the CANADA & maple leaf logo. The button is similar.

I am not saying this confirms that badge, just that it gives some credence to the fact that this rate appears to indicate a firefighter,

Bryan
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File Type: jpg Fire cap badges 1962.jpg (49.6 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg Fire buttons.jpg (33.5 KB, 28 views)
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