Insignia Quiz

[jim a]

As I'm not really a cloth collector (by my now apparent lack of knowledge) I can not provide the examples asked for. This badge was at a fellow collectors house and I managed to photograph it there. It had caught my eye and he had been given it by the actual colour party sargent who said it was used only for the Lieutenant Govenor of Saskatchewan. Great story and what I thought I had was a great badge to dazzle the forum members with.... however the only one out there that got dazzled was me.... good lesson for everyone... buy the badge not the story. If anyone else can put up the badges requested it might put some closure to this embarrassing thread for me...

[Bill A]

Hi Jim, I wouldn't be embarrassed. This was a great thread. I wouldn't dismiss the story that the colour sergeant wore the insignia for the Lieutenant-Governor. It may well be that they used such a badge, but it was not only for that purpose.
Here is an image of the colour sergeant's armbadge for the Canadian Guards. The badges for the Foot Guards and the Royal's is a different pattern again.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Bill A

Hi Jim, I wouldn't be embarrassed. This was a great thread. I wouldn't dismiss the story that the colour sergeant wore the insignia for the Lieutenant-Governor. It may well be that they used such a badge, but it was not only for that purpose.
Here is an image of the colour sergeant's armbadge for the Canadian Guards. The badges for the Foot Guards and the Royal's is a different pattern again.

If the Canadian Guards follow the same regulations as the British Foot Guards, then this badge is not worn exclusivly by CSgts. It is worn on its own by WO2s and upon chevrons by CSgts.

Andy

[Bill A]

Cdn Guards were disbanded in 1970. Clive may know the regulations for the Foot Guards, but I suspect they did follow British practices. The Cdn Guards were formed under the tutelage of Simmonds, who was a anglophone, and wished to emulate the traditions of the British guards regiments.

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by 1stTankie

Hi Jim

To satisfy my curiosity could I ask you to post photographs of the comparable arm badges worn by the Canadian Grenadier Guards and the Canadian Guards at the end of this exercise please?

Best wishes

Gordon

Her is photograph showing the badges worn by the Canadian Guards, the GGFG,the CGG and the Royal Regiment of Canada.
Photo from Jason Rose and Canadiansoldiers.com

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/m...dianGuards.jpg

[1stTankie]

".. it was used only for the Lieutenant Governor of Saskatchewan. Great story and what I thought I had was a great badge to dazzle the forum members with.... however the only one out there that got dazzled was me.... good lesson for everyone... buy the badge not the story. If anyone else can put up the badges requested it might put some closure to this embarrassing thread for me...[/QUOTE]

Hi Jim

Thank you very much for putting up what has turned out to be a most interesting post. My question was in no way intended to cause you any embarrassment and, if it did, I apologise for my clumsy wording.

My thanks also to Voltigeur for the photograph showing the variations, not being a collector of Canadian badges I had not appreciated there were so many.

There are clear similarities between Jim's first one in this thread and that of the Canadian Grenadier Guards but the differences are easily identifiable; more than just assuming this could be due to different manufacturers.

Jim, you say that this was used only for the Colour Party for the Lieutenant Governor of Saskatchewan. Some questions arise:

To which Regiment did this Colour Sargeant belong? Would it have been the Canadian Grenadier Guards?

Does every Guards Regiment enjoy the privilege of wearing a "one-off" badge on such occasions? Does the granting of such privilege rest within the gift of the Lieutenant-Governor?

I hope these queries do not add to any embarrassment you may feel, I think it's a very worthwhile thread and has been of great value. Thank you.

Best wishes

Gordon

[servicepub]

Does every Guards Regiment enjoy the privilege of wearing a "one-off" badge on such occasions? Does the granting of such privilege rest within the gift of the Lieutenant-Governor?

Every Guards Regiment's Colour Sergeant would wear a badge showing his Regiment's Colours which means that within every regiment a different badge was worn.
The Lt-Gov has NO say in this as it is between the Regiment and National Defence to apply for or approve a badge. In this case the Sovereign's permission is required because of the use of the Crown.
If I were the Colonel of the Canadian Grenadier Guards and saw someone on the staff of the Lt-Governor of Saskatchewan wearing this badge I would shoot off a very pointed letter explaining why it was inappropriate for the Queen's representative to use a badge approved by HM solely for wear by one of Her regiments.
Clive

[1stTankie]

Originally Posted by servicepub

Every Guards Regiment's Colour Sergeant would wear a badge showing his Regiment's Colours which means that within every regiment a different badge was worn.
The Lt-Gov has NO say in this as it is between the Regiment and National Defence to apply for or approve a badge. In this case the Sovereign's permission is required because of the use of the Crown.
If I were the Colonel of the Canadian Grenadier Guards and saw someone on the staff of the Lt-Governor of Saskatchewan wearing this badge I would shoot off a very pointed letter explaining why it was inappropriate for the Queen's representative to use a badge approved by HM solely for wear by one of Her regiments.
Clive

Hi Clive

Thank you for that, I think I'm a little wiser.
So if the regiment (still not nominated) or the Lt- Gov. did not authorize this badge who did?

Yours, still puzzled

Gordon

[servicepub]

Originally Posted by 1stTankie

Hi Clive

Thank you for that, I think I'm a little wiser.
So if the regiment (still not nominated) or the Lt- Gov. did not authorize this badge who did?

Yours, still puzzled

Gordon

A Colour Sergeant's badge is worn by tradition in Guards regiments. The regiment would apply for a specific badge in which the 'colour' used on the badge design is representative of their regiment. The Minister of National Defence would approve the 'concept' of the badge and forward the design to Her Majesty for approval. This approval, once received, allowed the Minister of National Defence to authorize the procurement and wearing of the badge.

Insofar as a Lietenant-Governor is concerned; this person is the Queen's representaive in the Province. As there are 10 provinces it follows that there are 10 Lt-Governors. Their role is almost purely ceremonial (with a constitutional role within the province as a key element) and they have next to nothing to do with the Canadian Forces.

On the other hand, the Governor-General is the Queen's representative for the country and is the Commander-in-Chief of the Canadian Forces. He is also the Honourary Colonel of both the Governor General's Horse Guards (GGHG) and Foot Guards (GGFG). He will often approve items of ceremonial on behalf of Her Majesty - but not any insignia which incorporates the Crown as that is the sole purvue (purview ?)of HM.

Clear as mud?

[jranrose]

I looked throught both my copies of the 1956 and 1966 version of the Canadian Guards Standing Orders and it makes no mention of the Colour Sergeants badge. My question is, when did Canada start using these insignia?

[1stTankie]

Hi Jim and Clive

Many thanks for the trouble you have taken to answer my somewhat obscure questions.
I am fast coming to the view that the badge in question, as posted by Jim, is probably an attempt by an inexperienced or ill-informed badge manufacturer to produce a Colour Sgt's badge of rank for the Canadian Guards.

It looks like a combination of design features from mainly two other badges, Canadian Grenadier Guards and Canadian Guards, with variations in the swords and cords.

Do we know who the manufacturer might have been and has he made any others?

Best wishes

Gordon

[Bill A]

To follow up on jranrose' question, when did the practice of wearing colour sergeant insignia start in Canadian guard regiments? The Foot Guards and the Grenadier Guards may have had these for their full dress uniforms dating back to their formation as Guards regiments?

[servicepub]

Insofar as the GGFG are concerned they have always worn the Colour Sergeant badge.

The first photos shows officers and Sr NCOs form 1872 - the date of formation;




This photo shows the badge in wear by Sr NCOs upon their return from the North West Rebellion, ca. 1885;



As a side note. I am always looking for photos of Victorian-era Canadian Militia for use in 2 upcoming books.
Clive

[Bill A]

Lovely images. The detail is fantastic.

[Blue Puttees]

Does anyone own an original Canadian Colour Sergeant chevron from the 1870s or 1880s? If yes, could you please post a photograph of it. Thank you.