Yellow thread badges were they official RCN issue

[Antrim82]

As a collector of RN badges I have been curious at the number of supposed substitute gold wire badges manufactured in yellow thread, dating from WWII, and mostly appearing to be of Canadian manufacture.

These cannot be official RN items as the wearing of No1 dress and Gold badges was suspended in 1939 by AFO 3025 'for the period of the war' and therefore there is no requirement for a substitute.

The AFO did leave it open for men in possession of this uniform to continue to wear it on leave therefore my original thoughts were that these were 'Tailor made' made items to satitisfy the 'Tiddly suit' market. Now having seen the large numbers of these badges available in Canada I am curious to know if there is a possibility that these were ever official 'RCN' issue.

Can anybody out there comment.

[RCN]

My understanding of the yellow embroidered rank & rate badges in use in the RCN - these came in in approx 1944, as an economy measure, in lieu of gold wire embroidered badges.

I dont think (& of course I can be corrected on this) that gold wire badges were ever wartime temporarily abolished in the RCN.

Both types were definitely worn on tunics as I have seen & have had examples of these.

There seemed to be a great lot of them manufactured as one always sees them at shows in Canada. I have many examples of them.

There are examples of these yellow embroidered badges in my threads in the RCN section.

Bryan

[Bill A]

This is interesting, as I posted an image of 4 of the Combined Ops patches I have in my collection. The yellow embroidered one may be RCN?
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ead.php?t=8233

[Antrim82]

Bryan,
Thanks for the information confirming the source, date of introduction and the wearing of the badges by Canadian personnel. Possibly it was a separate decision by Canada in 1944 that production capacity could be spared to produce substitute gold badges for RCN use, and I'm sure some of them must have been 'acquired ' by RN personnel for use on leave.

I do however still have some questions in my mind as to whether they are 'official' which I hope you don't mind me setting out here for further discussion. These are:

1. There is no 'Service' demand for them in wartime. Other than leave when would you require No1 dress?
2. The design, approval, and production effort to produce a full range of substitute badges for all rates and trades would be hard to justify in wartime.
3. The quality of the designs produced is not always to the standard of the nearest equivalent red badges. For example Stars appear too sharp, Gun barrels are too thin, and crowns misshapen. These are variations which I am sure would have never been passed and sealed by the clothing authorities.
4. I have never seen any CPO collar pairs in this format. It may be they retained gold badges due to their status, but for uniformity I would have thought some may have been produced.
5. I have never seen any with stores numbers attached. As issued red badges always had the stores number on them which had to be trimmed off before they were applied to uniforms.

Unfortunately being based in UK without access to The RCN museums and Canadian naval archives these questions are not easily answered so I welcome any comment. The massive expansion of the RCN during WW2 developed many uniquely Canadian practices and requirements so I am cautious at dismissing these as 'unofficial' purely based on RN theory. I therefore live in hope of the 'Holy Grail' a 1944 dated Canadian Sealed pattern, and accompanying list of 'Clothing Soap and Tobacco issuing prices' for yellow thread badges.

[RCN]

Hello Antrim - unfortunately I dont have "official" answers to your questions, & have much the same myself. I have collected the RN/RCN rate badges now for over 40 yrs, & have in my collection, & have seen many variants of the wartime issue. I can only assume {& we all know that "assumption is the mother of all **** ups"!!!!} that the variations in the size, style, shape, embroidery, etc of badges was caused by various manufacturers producing the product(s) under wartime conditions.

I will try to answer yr questions that I am able within yours below::::

[QUOTE=Antrim82;52239]Bryan,
Thanks for the information confirming the source, date of introduction and the wearing of the badges by Canadian personnel. Possibly it was a separate decision by Canada in 1944 that production capacity could be spared to produce substitute gold badges for RCN use, and I'm sure some of them must have been 'acquired ' by RN personnel for use on leave.

Actually this economy measure was started by the RN: Promulgated 7 Aug '41 -- " To save gold lace, (officers) stripes (sleeve lace) were to go only 1/2 way round the cuff"

& on 6 Jan '44 -- (Officers) shoulder straps with woven distinction lace (instead of wire lace) were introduced, & other wartime economies included all metal cap badges"

Presumably the yellow embroidered insignia was introduced at this time.

I am not certain how this is going to come out as I have tried to highlight my responses so will post & see what happens,

Bryan

[RCN]

OK so that previous post of mine came out reasonably well, so I will continue:

Originally Posted by Antrim82

Bryan,


1. There is no 'Service' demand for them in wartime. Other than leave when would you require No1 dress?

I recall reading yrs ago, & unfortunately I cannot place my hands upon it now, that "gold badges were held in abeyance for wartime". How this was actually enforced or unenforced in wartime I cannot say, but I do know that both gold wire & yellow embroidered insignia were worn in the RCN during the late war {'44-'46} period. & likely continued to be worn up to the major change in the RCN rank & rate structure in 1948-49.


2. The design, approval, and production effort to produce a full range of substitute badges for all rates and trades would be hard to justify in wartime.
I agree & would guestimate that just the more common rates were produced. One over here in Canada sees many of the same rate badges over & over again, but seldom the rarer badges. Perhaps less of the less common rates were produced. ie: as an example, one sees many Gunnery, Sonar(ASDIC), Torpedo, Sailmaker, Stoker, rate badges, but the Photographer rate is very rare.

3. The quality of the designs produced is not always to the standard of the nearest equivalent red badges.

Yes, again, I agree. Some were not up to pre war standards, & also different thread was used, later in the war synthetic thread came into being, whereas prior to wartime only the (natural) cotton thread was used.

For example Stars appear too sharp, Gun barrels are too thin, and crowns misshapen. These are variations which I am sure would have never been passed and sealed by the clothing authorities.
yes, agree, many varients of the common Gunnery rate badges exist, some were well made, others poorly manufactured. I am certain this was due to many different companies manufacturing the badges & poor quality control standard - not of pre war standards - after there was a war on & production of insignia must have ranked low in the 'big picture' scheme of things.


4. I have never seen any CPO collar pairs in this format. It may be they retained gold badges due to their status, but for uniformity I would have thought some may have been produced.
yes some exist, I have an example or two & will post.

5. I have never seen any with stores numbers attached. As issued red badges always had the stores number on them which had to be trimmed off before they were applied to uniforms.
I too have never seen any of these, however I think the stores numbers are a post war addition. & I dont think the RCN followed this numbering practice onthe badges

Unfortunately being based in UK without access to The RCN museums and Canadian naval archives these questions are not easily answered so I welcome any comment.
Any Canadian naval museums I have been in, any naval insignia shown are frequently a mish mash of periods & many are even incorrectly identifiied.

The massive expansion of the RCN during WW2 developed many uniquely Canadian practices and requirements so I am cautious at dismissing these as 'unofficial' purely based on RN theory.
The RCN expanded so fast in '40-'41 that we did not even have the facilities here to acommodate this expansion in the early part of the war & it caused many headaches & problems for the Naval service.

I therefore live in hope of the 'Holy Grail' a 1944 dated Canadian Sealed pattern, and accompanying list of 'Clothing Soap and Tobacco issuing prices' for yellow thread badges.
yes, I agree, & would like to see some "official patterns" as well. I have never seen any & am not 100% certain they even exist. if they do I know I have never seen any examples.

I hope my speculative answers help somewhat Antrim, accurate information on wartime naval insignia seems to be difficult to locate -- Bryan

[RCN]

Originally Posted by Antrim82

Bryan,


1. There is no 'Service' demand for them in wartime. Other than leave when would you require No1 dress?

I got to thinking about this sentence after I posted the above post, & I am thinking --- well if you were lined up for inspection or another special occassion - something important - like an inspection of yr ship's company by George VI, or Churchill, or First Lord, (or whomever, an important personage) then Ship's Co would certainly be turned out in Nr 1 dress - I have seen photos of similar inspections & they are dressed in best uniforms. You would not be dressed in less than No 1's for someone like the King or PM, & a lot of preparation would take place on board for someone like this. Everybody would be on edge for sure!!!

Bryan

..................................

[RCN]

Here are examples of some yellow embroidered rate badges WWII period:

PO Torpedo Coxswain sleeve badge

& CPO pair TC lapel badges.

[RCN]

WWII Bandsman sleeve rate badge,

& CPO Bandsman lapel badges.

Note the difference in thread colour.

[RCN]

In the posts above I mentioned variants in the style & embroidery of the WWII badges.

Here are examples of variants in the common Stoker rates:

Stoker 1st class & PO Stokers.

[RCN]

Here are examples of the more commonly seen WWII Gunnery rate badges: