Grenadier Guards - Mystery Badges?

[Bill]

Help please! In the Guards Museum there are two unidentified badges attributed to the Grenadier Guards:

1. The large badge shown below measures 42 x 55 mm versus 38 x 44 mm for an OR badge. It would be very odd to fake an oversize badge like this, so is it a type of FSH badge or not a cap badge at all or a badge belonging to another regiment?

2. Also in the Museum are badges that have stamped on the ball the Royal cypher and a small grenade under the cypher. The buttons are of this pattern and here I have used a GRV button placed on the ball of a standard OR badge to simulate their appearance. If I remember rightly, the badges on display have less than 17 points. This odd pattern seems to fall between the Sergeants’ and Musicians’ badge, where the cypher only is stamped on the ball, and the Warrant Officers’ Class I badge that has a silver cypher mounted on the ball. Possibly the pattern is for a particular Warrant Officer Class II appointment, if so which one? Or might it be a Canadian badge ....or what?

Thanks in advance.

Bill

[grenadierguardsman]

The large badge was worn on the FSH (Pith Helmet), there is one showing this in the museum. I don't understand what you mean with reference the other badge. Have a look in my Grenadier Guards album.
Andy

[Bill]

Thanks Andy.

I looked at the album and I'm not sure if there are any photographs of the large badge being worn on the FSH. Could you please post one and do you know when it was first issued?

On the second "badge" with the small grenade under the cypher, these badges are in the Guards Museum but not in any of the reference books, i.e. the grenade balls are stamped with the button patterns for various monarchs (Victoria, Edward VII, George V). Gary has asked for help to identify these before and drew a blank.

Cheers

Bill

[john badge]

I have no reason for this Bill, its just a guess but I wonder if its an interal difference between Grenadier Battalions?

[Bill]

Hi John

No I don't think so, I think it is more likely to be a pre 1915 WOII such as Company Quartermaster Sergeant, Company Sergeant Major or Colour Sergeant, but then I have no evidence for this.

Some descriptions vary between Volume 1 and 2. To summarise:

KK891 O.R. - Plain ball - OK
KK893 Sgt. & Mus. - Crown & Cypher struck on ball - OK
Missing - Crown & Cypher & Grenade struck on ball
KK1949 Staff - Crown & Cypher in silver mounted on the ball -OK
KK889 Officers - Crown & Cypher in gilt mounted on the ball -Wrong
Not shown OSD - Plain ball in bronze - OK
Missing - Large grenade, possibly pagri but could be RA pagri badge?

The KK889 attribution is incorrect, because all photographs show officers wearing the bullion grenade and indeed this is specified in the Army Dress Regulations of 1911 - "On the forage cap - a grenade in gold embroidery".

However Bosleys (Lot186, Issue 43, 25th Jan 2006) described KK889 as 'Commissioned Quartermasters' which is a role filled either by a Captain or Lieutenant, one per battalion which, if this in fact the case, explains why it is so rare.

Cheers

Bill

[grenadierguardsman]

There is evidence that Officers did wear a "Metal Grenade".
Andy

[Bill]

Do you mean the OSD bronze badge?

[grenadierguardsman]

No Bill, i've just put another picture on my Grenadier Guards album.
Andy

[Bill]

Thanks Andy.
Do you know when and where the photographs were taken?
The bullion version is given for the Forage Cap in the 1904 Dress Regs.
Cheers
Bill

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Bill

Thanks Andy.
Do you know when and where the photographs were taken?
The bullion version is given for the Forage Cap in the 1904 Dress Regs.
Cheers
Bill

What photo's Bill, leave a comment on the photo's in question and i will message you the info. With reference to the OSD Grenade, they were made I've seen a couple, i lost out to one some time ago. They were probably never worn, after all the Coldstream Guards and the Scots Guards wore the Bronze OSD badge's.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

I forgot to add, Grenadier Guards Officers did wear Gilding Metal badges, in about the late 1800's. There is photographical evidence that shows this.
Andy