NZ reinforcement numerals

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by vigilans

All these numerals originally came from Trade Me New Zealand, and re sold on ebay. NOT Australian numerals

http://www.trademe.co.nz/antiques-co...-692004587.htm

Vigilans we can all agree the shoulder titles in question were made in Australia.

However I question where is your proof that the badges sold on Ebay originally came from Trade Me New Zealand??????

So far no New Zealand Reinforcement badge collectors have agreed with your theory that the Stokes made badges in question are New Zealand Reinforcement badges, so I ask, what proof do you have to back your claims???????

I have checked the link you have provided for the New Zealand Trade Me seller and see the seller has describes them as. — “WW1 regiment a pair of number 21” & “Stokes & sons”

It is interesting to note that the New Zealand seller does not describe them as New Zealand Reinforcement badges.

It is also interesting to note that when I checked the New Zealand sellers ‘Auction feedback’ I found that the majority of the Stokes made shoulder numerals were sold to New Zealand badge collectors as I recognise their user IDs which adds weight that the badges sold on Ebay did not come from the Trade Me seller that you have provided a link for.

[vigilans]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Vigilans we can all agree the shoulder titles in question were made in Australia.

However I question where is your proof that the badges sold on Ebay originally came from Trade Me New Zealand??????

So far no New Zealand Reinforcement badge collectors have agreed with your theory that the Stokes made badges in question are New Zealand Reinforcement badges, so I ask, what proof do you have to back your claims???????

I have checked the link you have provided for the New Zealand Trade Me seller and see the seller has describes them as. — “WW1 regiment a pair of number 21” & “Stokes & sons”
It is interesting to note that the New Zealand seller does not describe them as New Zealand Reinforcement badges.

It is also interesting to note that when I checked the New Zealand sellers ‘Auction feedback’ I found that the majority of the Stokes made shoulder numerals were sold to New Zealand badge collectors as I recognise their user IDs which adds weight that the badges sold on Ebay did not come from the Trade Me seller that you have provided a link for.

Hi Atilla...not sure I like the tone of your post? You are quite wrong in regards to some things you "assume", I think some evidence to back up your accusations may be in order 'Old Boy’.
Here's the buyer and fellow forum member who on-sold these numerals on eBay:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Fee...?member=546592
Brad aka shedfinds and a plethora of other aliases that I will not mention in this post, but a number of people on this forum know them...........

Whether they are NZ or not...I don't really care; but they are NOT Australian Slouch hat numerals, (the point I have been trying to make) they are too small (at 13mm) and the soldered bars are not correct.
Our slouch hat numerals are numbered from 1 to 92/93.
The largest number of the two bar (NZ Stokes) type in question I have seen is 50, and they come in pairs which leads me to believe they are meant for use on either the epaulette or collar.
Australians wore one numeral on the slouch hat.

Strange that all these numerals have come out of New Zealand....why?
Because for some reason and for some purpose they were sent there from Australia, reinforcement numerals? Maybe, some other type of military or civil use...don’t know/care.

I have obviously made the mistake of describing them as reinforcement numerals but I still think that’s what they are, and you know what Atilla....I’m happy with that presumption!!!!
Make up your own mind......I'm over it...

See attached image from the Grey collection in South Australia note the Slouch Hat numerals!!!!

[vigilans]

Here's pics of some of my slouch hat numerals all 19 -20 mm high, and not ONE is marked Stokes and Sons, and NO soldered bars !!!!!!!!
Other pics of some NZ titles from my collection all marked Stokes and Sons!!!!
Strange eh?

[atillathenunns]

Vigilans in regards to your post (#9) my two questions were very pertinent, after all it was you who provided the attached link in that post, which as I correctly pointed out shows no links to the Australian Ebay seller.
The latest link you have provided does however show a connection to the New Zealand Trade Me seller, so finally you are starting to make sense, albeit in a roundabout way.

As I have already mentioned, until proof of Stokes made shoulder numerals being worn by NZ Reinforcements can be produced they should be treated by kiwi collectors as Australian badges and not as New Zealand badges.

[vigilans]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Vigilans in regards to your post (#9) my two questions were very pertinent, after all it was you who provided the attached link in that post, which as I correctly pointed out shows no links to the Australian Ebay seller.
The latest link you have provided does however show a connection to the New Zealand Trade Me seller, so finally you are starting to make sense, albeit in a roundabout way.....

As I have already mentioned, until proof of Stokes made shoulder numerals being worn by NZ Reinforcements can be produced they should be treated by kiwi collectors as Australian badges and not as New Zealand badges.

Don't split hairs Atilla, just admit you made an error, the badges all came out of NZ Trademe, and were bought and re sold on ebay...big deal! Didn't you read my last post #17 and #18...I suggest you re read them so the information sinks in.......
THEY ARE NOT AUSTRALIAN SLOUCH HAT NUMERALS......OK
As I said........Whether they are NZ or not...I don't really care; but they are NOT Australian Slouch hat numerals, (the point I have been trying to make) they are too small (at 13mm) and the soldered bars are not correct.
Our slouch hat numerals are numbered from 1 to 92/93.
The largest number of the two bar (NZ Stokes) type in question I have seen is 50, and they come in pairs which leads me to believe they are meant for use on either the epaulette or collar.
Australians wore one numeral on the slouch hat. [/I]

It is interesting to note that you represent the NZ collecting fraternity:
“As I have already mentioned, until proof of Stokes made shoulder numerals being worn by NZ Reinforcements can be produced they should be treated by kiwi collectors as Australian badges and not as New Zealand badges”
Obviously you are the expert...as I said previously I don’t care, so stop getting all hot and sweaty, have a cup of tea, take a pill, and have a good lie down.....jeeeez

[vigilans]

Ian’s (pukman) words are echoing in my head..................

Hello Viligans ,
I hope to keep everything civil , in an attempt to get to the crux of this conundrum ....

Atilla....you are obviously a very passionate collector/historian, I have read many of your posts and am impressed with your passion......I don't want to argue any more with you or anyone on this matter.....so not NZ until proved otherwise (although they all came out of NZ!)
Nor are they Australian issue slouch hat numerals....the end

[Wayne Ihaka]

Brent, why would Australians make numeral badges of this size when they have no use for them? Their numeral badges are 20mm.

Funny also how they are the same size as NZ numeral badges and end at #50 which just coincides with the last reinforcement draft called to camp in NZ.

Finally if all Australian made badges are for Australian use as you say these stokes made numeral badges are why do we have Stokes made NZ shoulder titles and other badges from WW1 period which would be reasonable to assume were issued to NZ troops?

you call for proof on NZ use, they fit the size of NZ badges that would have been used but conversely there is absolutely no evidence that they were ever used for Australian purposes being the wrong size.

I would say they are far more likely to have been used by NZ than Australian troops based on what I have heard here

[scotch]

Sadly away from my collection at the moment so can't post any examples of Australian hat numerals that I have, but they would look no different generally to vigilans examples. Most have pebbled attachment bars to front, all have lugs centre, east and west position, all are solid construction and all 19-20mm in height.

Cheers Scotch

[saumua]

Guys I will ask Geoff Oldham when these Aussie made numbers started turning up. From memory they are not seen on old uniforms so may be unissued stock but Geoff has a longer view than most of us I suspect. I recall that the appearance of these Aussie made numbers in NZD is not that long ago but will ask and revert.

[Tinto]

Hi All,
Does anyone know the seller of these Stoke marked numerals and asked him about provenance? Although these numerals look old there is always the possibility they are fakes.
Cheers, Tinto

[vigilans]

You have gone quiet Brent?

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Wayne Ihaka

Brent, why would Australians make numeral badges of this size when they have no use for them? Their numeral badges are 20mm.

Wayne oddly as it seems I don’t have the answer for that yet, but I am sure just by discussing it we may actually solve this mystery.

Originally Posted by Wayne Ihaka

Funny also how they are the same size as NZ numeral badges and end at #50 which just coincides with the last reinforcement draft called to camp in NZ.

The last reinforcements to enter camp were the 51st Reinforcements. However men who were to make up the 52nd, 53rd and 54th Reinforcements had received their call up papers and dates of which they had to report at camp.

Originally Posted by Wayne Ihaka

Finally if all Australian made badges are for Australian use as you say these stokes made numeral badges are why do we have Stokes made NZ shoulder titles and other badges from WW1 period which would be reasonable to assume were issued to NZ troops?

Wayne keep your eye on the little ball, I never said that “all Australian made badges are for Australian use.”
Take your time, reread my comments especially where I say “So far.” If you look hard enough you will see I am simply collecting information, yes it may look like I am pushing Vigilans buttons, that’s because I am, sadly he is on the right track but I am starting to think the voices echoing in his head are preventing him from seeing a much bigger picture.

Originally Posted by Wayne Ihaka

You call for proof on NZ use.

Calling for proof seemed logical to me.

Originally Posted by Wayne Ihaka

They fit the size of NZ badges that would have been used but conversely there is absolutely no evidence that they were ever used for Australian purposes being the wrong size.

So far as I can see, there has been absolutely no evidence produced that the Stoke numerals in question were ever used by New Zealand Reinforcements.

Originally Posted by Wayne Ihaka

I would say they are far more likely to have been used by NZ than Australian troops based on what I have heard here

I myself am leaning toward the Stokes made numerals having never have been worn at all.

However just as a point of interest, the amount of “14” numerals sold by ‘Big-mama-nz’ on Trade me is around 17, and the number of “32” numerals was also around 17.

Wayne if you took the time to count up all the numerals that Big mama has sold on Trade me you will start to see patterns emerging.
The most notable pattern is that Big mama has only sold numerals between 14 and 50.
14 = 17
15 = 1
16 = 0
17 = 0
18 = 3
19 = 0
20 = 11

I believe the shortages of numerals from 15 to 19 will be our best hope to ascertain if these badges were worn New Zealand reinforcements.
So to prove it lets see what 15, 16, 17, 18 & 19 NZ reinforcement shoulder titles are in forum members collections?????????????

It has been almost one year since we started to see badges such as the Stokes numerals flood Trade me, and it is interestingly just over one year since we started to see NZMC collar badges (made by Stokes) 11th Auckland MR badges and Bugle horn cap and collars also flood the Trade me market by the seller Kamasu.
The interesting part is that Big-mamma-nz (Anna) and Kamasu (Mark) both happen to live in Palmerston North.

Originally Posted by vigilans

You have gone quiet Brent?

For someone who kept on mentioning “I don't really care” I am not sure why you are still here, but if you are serious about getting to “the crux of this conundrum” stop acting the dick and contribute like a grown up.

[Corey]

This could be of interest as per those numbers. photos I took last year at the Auckland Museum.
Interesting these numbers start at 17?? and not the stokes type.
The only (camp cut) numbers I have are 23 x2, 24, 31.

Cheers
Corey

[Tinto]

Hi Brent,
You wrote:
I believe the shortages of numerals from 15 to 19 will be our best hope to ascertain if these badges were worn New Zealand reinforcements.
So to prove it lets see what 15, 16, 17, 18 & 19 NZ reinforcement shoulder titles are in forum members collections?????????????

I have 3 "18"s, 1 "19".
I do have separate "1" and "5" for 15th but not sure if that is pukka.

Cheers, Tinto

[pukman]

One of my favourite sporting quotes is from Aussie test cricketer and former WW2 airman Keith Miller,'' Having a Messerschmitt up your arse is pressure ,cricket is not ''

Put things into perspective, collecting badges is a hobby.

So keep the comments constructive chaps ,or the thread will go the way of the one on the Australian section and it will be canned before any clear solution is found .

I see this morning more ''Stokes'' made shoulder numerals are being offered for sale on Trade Me .There seems to be a flood on the market .

Having been in touch with a few experienced badge collectors and military dealers ,one can form an opinion (and it is only an opinion).

These '' Stokes'' numerals do appear in some well established NZ badge collections .They have been uncommon in the past ,but some have come into collections via NZEF veteran's estates .This would suggest that some were worn by NZ'ers in WW1.However the flood on the market at the moment would suggest to me that these ones were a bulk lot of unissued badges .

More research is required ,but lets keep it tidy

Cheers Iain