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  #16  
Old 15-09-21, 01:09 PM
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Sorry, forgot said photo...
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File Type: jpg Air Ministry Warden.jpg (68.7 KB, 25 views)
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  #17  
Old 16-09-21, 10:32 AM
RAY WALKLING RAY WALKLING is offline
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Default AIR MINISTRY CIVILIAN EMPLOYEE WEARING UNIFORM

The correct term is AIR MINISTRY WARDERS, not wardens. Nevertheless the civilian shown in the picture is more likely to be an Air Ministry Messenger checking passes. We had one at HQ(U) Coastal Command in 1962/3 (Harry Sainsbury), who wore the exact same uniform except for Queens Crown badges.
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  #18  
Old 16-09-21, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
The correct term is AIR MINISTRY WARDERS, not wardens.
Well, not really.

To begin with, in researching a relative who was one and who always referred to himself as a 'WARDEN', as it was printed on his ID card, every website I have come across detailing the history of the Air Ministry Wardens, Air Ministry Constabulary, Air Force Department Constabulary and MOD Police refer to them as 'WARDENS'. A few examples:

https://british-police-history.uk/f/air-ministry
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peo...a7787325.shtml

It is true that they have been noted in the press as 'WARDERS':

http://www.unsolved-murders.co.uk/mu...een%20Coventry

and in parliament as 'WARDERS':

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-h...nistry-warders

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Common...WrittenAnswers

although they have equally been referred to in Parliament as 'WARDENS'

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-h...t-goring-heath

Additionally, their armband was specifically noted as being for WARDENS:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30066926
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30062164

So for me, mentions in the press and parliament as WARDERS, and official ID cards and insignia being for WARDENS, I'll stick with WARDEN.

As for him being a 'Messenger', possibly. When the Air Ministry Wardens were raised under the 'Air Force (Application of Enactments) Order (No. 2) of 1918 initially they had only a cap with cap badge and black armlet with 'AMW' in red. By the start of the war they were wearing full police uniform, which continued after they became the Air Ministry Constabulary, the cap insignia changing from the Large white metal crown of the AMW to the white metal or chromed cap badge of the AMC, being a circle with the 'AMC' letters in the centre and surmounted by a crown.. The photo below is of a former Warden who remained with the Constabulary, the photo showing the uniform of the former on the ID card of the latter. However, many older men were retained as 'security' still being referred to as 'Wardens' even though there was officially no such organisation by then. Hence the reference in Hansards above in 1947 despite the fact the AMW became the AMC in 1942.

So he may be a messenger, but I suspect with the photo being taken at the Air Ministry Kingsway, from a 1943 film he is probably a Warden.
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  #19  
Old 16-09-21, 03:21 PM
RAY WALKLING RAY WALKLING is offline
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Default AIR MINISTRY WARDERS

I'm impressed. Nevertheless AP 1086 (1937) lists clothing for A.M. Warders,
an AMWO in 1930 introduces new uniforms for Air Ministry warders and an AMO A in 1942 mentions change of the title of the Air Ministry warder grade to Air Ministry constabulary. The defence rests!!!
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  #20  
Old 16-09-21, 03:34 PM
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As I said in my previous post, not necessarily. However, saying they were WARDERS and not WARDENS is incorrect, as there are Official references for both, as pointed out. No defence warranted...

But as mentioned, I'll stick with my title, not least as a relative who was one referred to himself as such.

However I'd welcome scans of the documents you mentioned if you can add them here, as it will add to the library of material I have been researching. In particular the uniform references and any stores reference numbers for uniform and insignia that accompany them.
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  #21  
Old 16-09-21, 06:38 PM
blueboy684 blueboy684 is offline
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Default Standard Pattern

Is the attached of any interest? I took it when I visited the Reserve Collection at RAF (as was) Stafford a good few years back.
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  #22  
Old 16-09-21, 07:20 PM
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It is from my point of view!

Superb, thank you. Any others?
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  #23  
Old 16-09-21, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padre View Post
It is from my point of view!

Superb, thank you. Any others?
Are you sure??

Surely it says WARDERS

regards
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  #24  
Old 16-09-21, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
However I'd welcome scans of the documents you mentioned if you can add them here, as it will add to the library of material I have been researching. In particular the uniform references and any stores reference numbers for uniform and insignia that accompany them.
Yes, very sure thanks...
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  #25  
Old 16-09-21, 07:52 PM
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Default PA armband to Warders

Despite this thread going off at a tangent itís absolutely fascinating, exactly what makes the forum my favourite.
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  #26  
Old 16-09-21, 10:36 PM
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I agree, on both counts!
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