16th Welsh (Cardiff City) Service Battn Welsh Regt

[BROOKIES]

Thought would just update the thread on the Treorchy boy as now have the photo in the collection.

The black patch on his right arm signifies that he was in one of the six battalions that served with the 38th Division, most photo's concentrate on the 38th (Welsh or should it be Welch) patch on the left upper arm.

The patches were either square or round, colours (I know of) were red,yellow,black,green,purple.

Ta.

[41st]

Jonathan,

The 38th Div was definitely "Welsh".

The use of the C in the spelling was as far as I've been able to determine restricted to the 11th & 16th battalions.

In the case of the 16th you will note the clear desire to use the C in the correspondence posted earlier in this thread.

In the case of the 11th (Cardiff Pals) the C is used in the medal rolls and service papers.

Hwyl,
Kevin

[Mike B]

Fantastic thread - thanks to 41st (Hwyl) for kicking it off - and to all contributors. We had a Great Cousin (Ivor Beckett) from Saltney in North Wales. It remains a mystery to us how he served in (or with) the Cardiff Pals - under age. He was wounded, walked with a distinct limp, and never spoke about his experiences. We only met him a couple of times but he only wanted to talk about pigeon racing, an interest he shared with our dad. We respected his wishes.
Mike

[41st]

Mike,

Are you sure your cousin 202755 Ivor Beckett was in the 11th Cardiff Pals battalion?

His medal index card does not show entitlement to a 14/15 star which all the original members of the 11th have.

He could of course have been in a later reinforcement draft sent out to Salonika.

Hwyl (Welsh for cheers btw & not my name)

Kevin

[Mike B]

Hello Kevin

Many apologies for my mistake regarding your name.

It is very good of you to look on the roll. This resulted in me digging a little further. With Ivor not telling us much it is difficult to know exactly what happened - We know he was in France and Flanders when wounded though. I believe Saltney was a RWF catchment area, and having just had another look at 'Kitchener's Army' by Ray Westlake I find 113th Bde had several RWF Battalions within 38 Division (no doubt this is old news to WW1 Specialists). It also mentions that on 19 Jan 1915, Div HQ was at Colwyn Bay (also fairly local to Saltney). Westlake's narrative (page 152) also mentions costly actions at Mametz Wood - having just spoken with my brother he believes this could be where Ivor was wounded. Certainly we can remember him mentioning 'The Wood' last time we met, before he changed the subject back to pigeons. Of course all the above is based on conjecture.

Your posting rekindled an interest in something we may never solve, however, it is possible we now have a more likely avenue to explore.

I notice you quote a service number 202755 - is this something you have found? We have no service number unfortunately.

Thanks for your help - any thoughts/advice appreciated

Mike

PS - Ivor's brother - Arthur - was RFC and married the daughter of a 'White Russian' Colonel. This saga was short lived and is another family mystery.

[41st]

Mike,

He was definitely in the Welsh Regiment, not the RWF, as he is the only Ivor Beckett listed.

Here is his medal index card.

The story about Mametz Wood would fit with him being in the 16th City of Cardiff battalion as they were there and later in Flanders with the 38th Welsh Division. They were not however the Cardiff Pals.

The Cardiff Pals were the 11th battalion and apart from a very short spell early on in France, they were out in Salonika for the duration.

Happy searching.

Hwyl fawr,

Kevin

[Mike B]

Kevin
Many thanks for this - obviously him! Great to see his medal card. I was beginning to doubt a direct link with Welsh Reg, rather than correct designation of 'Cardiff Pals' purely for 11th Bn. It is very good of you to clear this up. The Forum really proves its worth when people like yourself help clarify family mysteries getting on for 100 years old. As a very young lad he certainly earned his medals!
Mike

[BROOKIES]

Kevin

C'mon we know it Welsh for the 38th Division, just stirring it up a little mentioning Welch. Our Treorchy man is in the 16th so he is in The Welch.

The black patch must/may be specific to the 16th (something to get your teeth into) as mentioned earlier six battalions of the Welsh (6 different colour patches used) wore them whilst under the 38th Division, although the 16th may not have had enough men to muster a full battalion.

Ta

[41st]

JB,

I only really research to the proper Cardiff battalion, the 11th.

As we all know recruiting for the "other battalion" was actually largely filled up in Treorchy, so no surprise your man is from there. This last was under the supervision of the then Lady Mayoress.

Why, I don't know. However, large numbers of the 16th were not from Cardiff.

Fel bob amser,
Cofion gorau,
Kevin

[41st]

Mike,

Croeso yn iawn.

Kevin

Originally Posted by Mike B

Kevin
Many thanks for this - obviously him! Great to see his medal card. I was beginning to doubt a direct link with Welsh Reg, rather than correct designation of 'Cardiff Pals' purely for 11th Bn. It is very good of you to clear this up. The Forum really proves its worth when people like yourself help clarify family mysteries getting on for 100 years old. As a very young lad he certainly earned his medals!
Mike

[BROOKIES]

Kevin.

It must have been down to what recruiting line you were standing in as the oldman new someone who was in the 11th, who said that when he went to enlist there were two queues, one full of men in suits and good clothes and the other full of men in work clothes, so which one did he choose !!

Ta

[High Wood]

Ivor Beckett's service number 202755 indicates service with the 4th battalion, Welsh Regiment T.F. though this does not prevent him from being transferred to the 11th battalion. As his medal index card has no other service number and the six figure Territorial Force service numbers were not issued until 1917 he cannot have been at Mametz Wood in 1916.

He also seems to have been born in Cheshire.

Name:
Ivor Beckett

Date of Registration:
Oct-Nov-Dec 1898

Registration district:
Chester

Inferred County:
Cheshire

Volume:
8a

Page:
369

[41st]

Well that number block doesn't fit with North Wales.

Why would he have been in the 4th Welsh which were a West Wales unit, the old 1st VB Pembs & Carms?

I do have a 203500 Watts who served with the 11th but generally their number block was late 1300 through early/ mid 1500. Exceptions exist if course.

The only territorial I have with six figure number for the 11th had his TF four figure number 1st.

I've not been able to find another Ivor Beckett in Ancestry for a Welsh unit and his birth registration obviously suggests North Wales for place of residence i.e. just over the border.

The only thing that would make sense is that when he enlisted or was conscripted in 1917 he was put into the 4th Welsh as he has no prior TF numbering.

I agree that with that number Mametz doesn't appear likely. As he has talked to the family about F & F he would not have been 11th for the reasons given in previous posts.

[Mike B]

Great detective work - I apologise for slightly diverting this thread, and hope no one minds.

It is amazing what your detective work has revealed. We have in deed been a Cheshire family for at least 400 years, but did have a branch that moved over the border into North Wales - to Saltney, where Ivor lived. Our father's side of the family lived in Saltney for a while too, before moving to Rossett (where Grandad was a chauffeur/gardener) and then returning to Chester (to open a green-grocers store). The locations you kindly provide do tie up with 'our' Ivor. It is very helpful to know Ivor's service number indicates 4th Battalion Welsh Regiment, but very confusing - I note formed at Carmarthen - and served Gallipoli/Egypy - this is a real mystery! We had always believed he served in France and Flanders - but he said very little himself. As for the Cardiff link, it is perhaps looking tenuous, but again has been embeded in the family for decades. My brother and I are most grateful for your help - this is a real mystery. We have learned more through you help on the Forum in a day that we had uncovered in decades! (For clarity we believe Ivor was Dads Cousin/Grandads Nephew)
Regards and sincere thanks - again - apologies for diverting your attention
Mike (and Richard - my twin brother)

[High Wood]

Mike,

unfortunately his service papers do not appear to have survived so it will be difficult to work out his exact military service.

There were three 4th battalions in the Welsh Regiment during the Great War, the 1/4th who fought at Gallipoli and later saw service in the Middle East, the 2/4th who were absorbed into the 2/4th battalion King's Shropshire Light Infantry in 1915, and the 3/4th who were formed at Carmarthen in March 1915. The 3/4th battalion became a reserve battalion in April 1916 and would have supplied soldiers to other battalions of the Welsh Regiment.

You will need to see Ivor's medal roll entry to find out which battalion he served overseas with. Unfortunately they are not online and are only available in hard copy at the National Archives.

Simon.