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Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#31
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There can be no doubt that the Birmingham Battalion buttons have the correct style backmark for First World War period buttons and are absolutely genuine.
Sorry to say I agree with David about Rob's Parachute Regiment button though! It does have the look of being a 1970s restrike, unlike the Para button shown by GTB. I have attached some photos of some of my buttons. The first shows a gilt/brass QC Royal Horse Guards with 'Gaunt London'; the one next to it is an anodised QC Scots Guards again with 'Gaunt London' but this time the 'G' is badly struck. I have no reason to doubt that both buttons are perfectly genuine examples. The last one is of an anodised KC East Surrey Regiment with 'Gaunt London' backmark perfectly formed. Again I have no reason to doubt that this is genuine and thus is reasonable proof that this backmark was in use in the early 1950s. I don't think a loose shank is much help with dating. As a rule of thumb loose shanks tended to be used on other ranks' buttons although there does seem to be a tendency for most modern anodised buttons to have a fixed shank (certainly most of mine are but this may be down to limited suppliers rather than anything else). The KC KSLI button shown by GTB seems to be OK in my view. If it has the green back and the oddly struck 'G' and 'T' in Gaunt though it may not be! Collecting buttons is so much fun! Roger |
#32
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Did anyone go here? |
#33
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The KSLI backmark is perfectly struck - no imperfections in the lettering. And no greenish hue.
Alas, my QC gilt RHG buttons have incomplete Gs and Ts! Fully agree that collecting buttons is so much fun. GTB |
#34
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Roger |
#35
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David |
#36
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Hi Chaps
Just to tie up a few loose ends. Hope you didn't think I was casting any doubt re the authenticity of Rob's Birmingham Bn buttons. No doubts whatsoever, I just meant to emphasise that the backmarks were not confined to WW1 As Roger says, loose shanks/drop shanks are not much help in dating buttons as they were used over a very long period of time. As regards the incident Btns mentions re poor quality modern gilt buttons. There is no comparison between a gilt button from, say, 1975 and one from 1905. The more modern buttons are very "cheap" looking in comparison. It's sometimes difficult to tell whether they are supposed to be gilded or anodised. I think I should add that, in my opinion, buttons are a bit like cap badges in the sense that there are some which will always divide opinions - nobody really knows if they are genuine or not. David |
#37
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Wonder of wonders!
While checking the backs of a couple more gilt KSLI buttons I turned up one with a greenish hue. No problem with the lettering. So evidently the manufacturer (Gaunt) utilised 2 distinct metals/finishes for these buttons and perhaps others: (a) golden yellow (b) greenish. Seen good strikes of GAUNT LONDON on RN KC PO buttons, to add to the list GTB |
#38
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As to whether genuine buttons have the blue/green tint to them I don't know. I think this is more usually associated with the restrikes, or at least the period when they were made; but possibly not exclusively. There are plenty of examples of genuine gilt KC buttons with the "Gaunt London" backmark - those made from c. 1949-1952 or so for units which hadn't yet adopted anodised buttons, or where Officers were permitted to continue wearing gilt buttons. (Or, in the case of your RN buttons, where anodised buttons were not worn.) David Last edited by davidwyke; 26-02-16 at 01:02 AM. |
#39
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Further data.
RN KC CPO rank button - The Gaunt London mark around a central raised dimple with 4 sewing holes. 9th Queens Royal Lancers Off gilt spunback,23mm - pre-1960 (QC) version with '9' below - complete lettering and greenish hue POW West Yorkshire Regt, off gilt spunback, 19mm, epaulette screw-post button - complete lettering RDF 26mm, gilt - flawed lettering GTB |
#40
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Looking at the above -
RDF - restrike - 100% certain. (If it is "Gaunt . London" that is). 9th Lcrs - possible restrike, not sure. I have a 17/21 Lcrs which is exactly as your 9 Lcrs (except for the regt of course) and I can't decide about that either. Maybe they are both fakes or just made around the same time. It's better quality than most of the restrikes. Incidentally, I have a 27th Lcrs, complete lettering, no tint on back (unless Roger has polished it off ) but still 100% fake! The Cavalry restrikes which turn up most frequently are - 3rd Carabineers, 27th Lancers & 24th Lancers, probably in that order; in my experience anyway. David PS... only large size buttons were restruck. The "Gaunt London" backmark appeared much earlier on some small size buttons (such as your West Yorks above), probably simply because of space limitations. Last edited by davidwyke; 26-02-16 at 08:17 PM. |
#41
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Hello
I agree the RDF is 100% restrike but I am not so sure about the 9th Lancers with Queen's crown. Personally I can see no reason (commercial or otherwise)to restrike a button that had only recently been superseded and could probably be found in abundance in stores somewhere. As I see it, the 'Gaunt London' backmark, clearly stamped, can be found on the back of many genuine buttons, anodised and gilt or brass, produced from about the late 1940s/early 1950s right up until the time Gaunts were taken over in 1991 (I think). The backmark with the 'G' and 'T' badly struck and buttons with a greenish back all appear to be much later issue (possibly 1960s/1970s). Provided the buttons in question are of the right period then they could all be genuine original issue (for want of a better term) rather than restrikes. What I mean is that a First World War period button with a 'Gaunt London' backmark is an obvious restrike (Royal Dublin Fusiliers, for example). A Second World War period button with a 'Gaunt London' backmark is also an obvious restrike (27th Lancers, for example). In both these examples the restrike is obvious because Gaunt did not use that backmark at those times. However, Gaunt clearly did produce Queen's crown buttons with 'Gaunt London' and as part of their normal production it is quite possible that those buttons were produced with a greenish back and/or the badly struck 'G' and 'T'. The fact that they produced restrike buttons at roughly the same time (ie late 1960s/early 1970s) with the same backmarks does not, in my view, mean that ALL those buttons with the problematic 'G' and 'T' and greenish back are restrikes. I think Rob's Royal Horse Guards button in post 17 is a perfectly genuine button produced late 1960s. GTB's 9th Lancers button could fall into the same category. As David said in an earlier post, this is probably going to be one of those issues when we will have to agree to disagree! However, we do all seem to agree that 'Gaunt London' was used as early as the late 1940s'/early 1950s and that is progress! Roger |
#42
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I absolutely concur with David's and Roger's reasoning.
I always accepted the RDF as a restrike and the QC gilt examples mentioned, as being authentic. I see nothing wrong with Gaunt's producing both authentic current-use buttons along with restrikes of older buttons for the market. The former would be high quality authentic items for contemporary wear and the latter also high quality restrikes acknowledged as such, for collectors, re-enactors or even potential museum copies. Thereby, I can see an admixture of both pristine and flawed lettering, as well as normal and tinted (greenish hue) backs, being turned out concurrently. And so everything falls into place (for me at least). GTB |
#43
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Hi Chaps
I certainly agree with the above posts (Roger & GTB) - I'm sure Gaunts produced many genuine QC buttons with the Gaunt London backmark. The problem is, as both myself & Roger have mentioned earlier, that they used the same backmark dies for the restrikes as they were using for the production of regular buttons. No doubt some of these have the broken letters. This is why there is so much confusion. I'm not a fan of the buttons with the blue/green tint and I must admit that I tend to associate them with restrikes. I've always wondered if they didn't bother finishing them off to the usual standard given the circumstances under which they had been ordered. However, I admit that it is quite possible that they are simply from the period when the restrikes were being produced, rather than being limited to them alone. Having said all that, I'm still not sure about the QC 9th Lcrs. If original it would have to be from the 1950's (9/12 Lcrs from 1960) and, personally, I think that's a bit early for the "funny coloured" backs. Also, I don't think they would have been held in stores as such. I believe the only authorised buttons for 9L were anodised so they would be an Officers private purchase item. That's just my opinion though and the chances are we will never know for sure! David Last edited by davidwyke; 26-02-16 at 11:00 PM. |
#44
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Further to the above, I thought it might be interesting (?) to explore this whole saga from a different angle. It's one which Roger already touched on earlier with his anodised East Surrey Regt button.
I have a large collection of anodised buttons, including virtually all of the early KC issues. I've just had a quick look through them to see what they might reveal. First off, aprox 30% of them were made by Gaunts. So, of the Gaunt buttons: 1) All except 2 have the "Gaunt London" backmark which is the subject of this thread. I think it's generally accepted that anodised buttons were phased in beginning in the late 1940's. So it more or less confirms that the "Gaunt London" backmark was in use by the late 1940's, perhaps it was even introduced with the anodised buttons themselves. The two exceptions are both KC and they have the earlier JR Gaunt & Son Ltd backmark. Presumably they are amongst the very first buttons to be produced or may even be from an earlier trial. Conclusion - I don't think the possible "1949" date for the introduction of the backmark can be far out. 2) The vast majority of the buttons have the backmark with properly formed letters, as does Roger's example. A small percentage have the defective letters. I'm not sure what this proves, perhaps they tended to use different backmark dies for the production of gilt & brass buttons? 3) Not a single button has the "blue/green" tint on the back. What does this say? Well, to my mind it doesn't do much to allay my suspicions about them, as detailed above. Then again, perhaps it might be down to different production techniques for anodised and metal buttons. As I said above, chances are we will never know for sure. David Last edited by davidwyke; 27-02-16 at 12:27 AM. |
#45
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To dispel any misconception of the 9QRL pattern, I have endeavoured to post a scan of face. I have no qualms that it is a bona fide Officers button of the period
GTB |
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