Lance Serjeants, Lance-Corporals of Horse etc

[badjez]

I've been trying to get a grip of the variations to rank badges worn in the British Army, post-1908.

One change I have not got clear is when the rank of Lance-Sergeant/Serjeant was dropped in favour of full Corporals. Other sites say 1946 but none quote any authority for this (Army Order, ACI etc.).

Additionally, the Household Cavalry ranks need a little clarification. How did they get Lance-corporal of Horse (badge 3 chevrons and worsted crown), and corporal of horse (whose badge was was three and a metal crown. I think it was something to do with their full corporals not being allowed into a Foot Guards Mess as their rank badges looked like Lance Corporals that started the changes?

A little gently nudge in the right direction would be appreciated.

Stephen.

[magpie]

At a visit to Windsor a couple of years ago i was told that they don't have sergeants only corporals so all the nco's are called corporal as sergeant means servant and they don't have servants in the household cavalry/horse guards etc only soldiers, that's if I've remember that correctly

[grumpy]

I will tackle lance-sergeants first, and avoid the Household Cavalry for a moment.

L-Sgt was an appointment, not a rank, for a full corporal, in the infantry and cavalry and some of the corps. It achieved several purposes, including a period of probabtion for prospective sergeants, more NCOs to do Sgts duties [there were never enough] and cheap labour. Strict limits were placed on PAID L-sgts [this extra pay was more than corporal and less than full sergeant] whereas a CO had authority to make up as many UNPAID ones as he fancied. These drew pay as corporals. Both paid and unpaid could be reduced to corporal without formal proceedings.
L-sgts were usually allowed Sgts Mess privileges, in some regiments they were not allowed to vote.
One way to distinguish L-sgts from Sgts in uniform was usually by the fact that only the latter wore the scarlet sash but this is not invariably the case and cannot be relied on.

The 1946 date is correct except for the Foot Guards. Between the two World Wars it was possible to find some of their corporals serving as such, and some as L-sgts. This is no longer the case, as all men promoted to full corporal receive the three white chevrons [on Home Service scarlet tunics]. Full sergeants ["gold sergeants"] have three gold lace chevrons of course. Thus a Guardsman wearing two white chevrons is indeed a lance-corporal.

[grumpy]

As for the Household Cavalry, there were no PAID L-cpl appointments until shortly after the Great War. The necessary unpaid ones wore two chevrons and crown, the same badge as a full corporal of the regiments.

There was no L-Cpl-of-Horse until comparatively recently [I believe the 1960s and can provide better detail if needs be].
The reasoning was indeed so that full corporals of HC could have the same messing privileges as L-Sgts of Foot Guards.
As for the cloth crown for LCpl-of-Horse and the metal one for Cpl-of-Horse, that seems a sensible fix if distinction is needed.

Not that I know anything much about cavalry.

[Postwarden]

Until June 1947 the minutes of the Army Council included a regular report from the War Office. During the war these were monthly but after June 1945 they were quarterly

I noted in the report for the quarter ended 30/9/46 'Appointment of Lance Sgt abolished because of new pay code'.

Hope that helps.

Jon

[badjez]

Thanks all. Slowly getting my brain into gear on this subject as it appears to be far more complicated than I first thought.

Stephen.

[grumpy]

I am advised that LCpl-of-Horse was introduced as recently as 1971.

The rank badge/pay grade conflict must surely be difficult for non HC soldiers to grasp.

Here we have a man who looks like a staff-sergeant or colour-sergeant [and would be addressed as "sir" by tradition in some regiments] who is paid as a corporal.

[grenadierguardsman]

In my old Regiment the Pioneer Sgt gets called Sir, as do Colour Sergeants and members of Battalion Staff that are Colour Sergeants and below.
Andy

[David Tremain]

Am I correct that there used to be the rank of L/Sgt in the RM as well? I seem to recall seeing it somewhere.

David

[Mike_2817]

The Royal Engineers and Army Ordnance Corps also used the rank of Lance Sergeant until 1946 when the rank was abolished and holders were mainly made Acting (unpaid) Sergeants which was lost on posting as the corps already used Corporal as a working rank. You could only be a Lance Sergeant if you were already a Substantive Corporal.

The RE & RAOC also used to use the rank of Second Corporal, which was a substantive rank (wearing one chevron) until 1920 which unlike Lance Corporal which was only an appointment rather than a rank at the time. Both were addressed as 'Corporal'

[REMEVMBEA1]

Originally Posted by grumpy

As for the Household Cavalry, there were no PAID L-cpl appointments until shortly after the Great War. The necessary unpaid ones wore two chevrons and crown, the same badge as a full corporal of the regiments.

There was no L-Cpl-of-Horse until comparatively recently [I believe the 1960s and can provide better detail if needs be].
The reasoning was indeed so that full corporals of HC could have the same messing privileges as L-Sgts of Foot Guards.
As for the cloth crown for LCpl-of-Horse and the metal one for Cpl-of-Horse, that seems a sensible fix if distinction is needed.

Not that I know anything much about cavalry.

I was posted to LAD REME , RHG in late 1959 and they had Corporals of Horse then so they were definitely pre 1960s.

[Carnforth]

Johnson Beharry VC is currently referred to as L/Sgt Beharry despite the fact that the rank doesn't exist in his regiment, the Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment.

The reason given by Wikipedia is;

On 1 June 2012 Beharry was promoted to corporal and moved to a public relations role with the Household Division. He therefore currently holds the appointment of lance sergeant, as do all corporals serving in the Household Division.

I think it would be more accurate to say that he is on the strength of HQ London District.
It would be unusual for attached personnel to have the rank of L/Sgt (or L/Cpl of Horse)

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by REMEVMBEA1

I was posted to LAD REME , RHG in late 1959 and they had Corporals of Horse then so they were definitely pre 1960s.

I think you mis-read or mis-typed.

Corporals of Horse were indisputably in existence pre-1960.

The discussion was about LANCE Corporals of Horse, which came about in 1971 at the instigation of Silver Stick.

[Sunray9]

Originally Posted by David Tremain

Am I correct that there used to be the rank of L/Sgt in the RM as well? I seem to recall seeing it somewhere.

David

David ... it seems there was a Kings Regulation, Admiralty Instruction 1913.
'Appointment of Lance and Acting Ranks. If the Captain should deem it expedient to increase the number of NCO's embarked with a detachment, Corporals may be appointed to act as Sergeants, to be styled Lance Sergeants; Privates RMLI, as Corporals, to be styled Lance-Corporals and Gunners Royal Marine Artillery as Bombardiers, to be styled Acting Bombardiers. Efficiency in the performance of the duties of the superior rank will be considered as advancing their claims for promotion'.

Ritchie.

[Carnforth]

Seems odd to think that L/Cpl only became a rank in the early 1960s (1961, I think it was)
Before that of course, it was only an appointment.