British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Cavalry, Yeomanry, Tank/RAC Badges

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 19-03-08, 10:57 AM
jeanpit-frenchy's Avatar
jeanpit-frenchy jeanpit-frenchy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: DUNKERQUE
Posts: 675
Default 19th Hussars (The Elephant Family).

i think it is "impossible mission" for me to found a genuine, so i am pleased with a nice 4 GBP fake....

but it seems to me that i have read in this forum that old badges must have loops N.S and yours is E.O (but my english is no very good, perhaps i have dont understand very well...)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC05055.JPG (24.3 KB, 145 views)
File Type: jpg DSC05056.JPG (20.9 KB, 123 views)
File Type: jpg DSC05063.JPG (20.0 KB, 147 views)

Last edited by Alan O; 07-10-14 at 02:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 20-03-08, 02:02 PM
Mike's Avatar
Mike Mike is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: North of Hadrian's Wall
Posts: 2,296
Default

Here's my copy of the first type.

Noticed the same marks on the reverse of the animal's upper back on this badge as Malc's badge - out of the same die I think. wonder who is making these things?





__________________
My insignia database contributions
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 20-03-08, 02:18 PM
Malcolm Davey's Avatar
Malcolm Davey Malcolm Davey is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: The Shire
Posts: 1,608
Default

Hang on we can't say these are restrikes just because one person has their own personal opinion and has not provided any proof.
The black lugs on mine and the stamping i believe my badge is genuine.

Cheers
Malc
__________________
http://www.watlingmilitaria.com/



Imagination is more important than knowledge. For while knowledge defines all we currently know and understand, imagination points to all we might yet discover.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 20-03-08, 07:59 PM
Keith Blakeman's Avatar
Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Staring into space, just wishing I had a desk.
Posts: 2,951
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Administrator View Post
your building my hopes up, tell me more
I personally think those where the tail is clearly separate from the body are fine, it's where there's a web between them the problem begins. There are a couple of different dies around for this badge which is surprising (or worrying!) for the small amount of time it was around.

The double scroll version is a real pain though, I'll post a picture of one bought by a dealer on ebay in a mo. Here's my single scroll for comparison first.

Last edited by Keith Blakeman; 27-05-08 at 09:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 20-03-08, 10:57 PM
Sonofacqms's Avatar
Sonofacqms Sonofacqms is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 6,786
Smile 19th Hussars (double scroll)

As I have said before, without handling the badge you can never be 100% sure, but if I saw either of these badges on ebay, I would not add them to "my watching list", the double scroll 19th is a very rare badge, I have never handled a real one in 55 years.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 20-03-08, 11:33 PM
dragonz18's Avatar
dragonz18 dragonz18 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Pukekohe , New Zealand
Posts: 532
Default

A possible interesting point here,though there was probably more than one manufacturer/style at that time.
The double scroll 'friendlier looking' elephant shown in Gaylor's book is actually more like Frenchy's badge(possibly cast copy of an origional ?) than any others shown here.With the prominant forehead bump & no extra shoulder hump along the top line of the animal's back.
Something I've always looked for, but never seen yet ,in the 'wild'.
Cheers !
Steve
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 21-03-08, 06:22 AM
jeanpit-frenchy's Avatar
jeanpit-frenchy jeanpit-frenchy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: DUNKERQUE
Posts: 675
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonofacqms View Post
As I have said before, without handling the badge you can never be 100% sure, but if I saw either of these badges on ebay, I would not add them to "my watching list", the double scroll 19th is a very rare badge, I have never handled a real one in 55 years.
KIPLING AND KING vol 2 , page 225 about restrikes...

"""....for instance, a cast specimen of the elephant/double-scroll pattern of the 19th hussars (KK790): collectors in those days knew that their chance of obtaining an original of such a badge well-nigh negligible....""""""
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 21-03-08, 10:01 AM
Jibba Jabba's Avatar
Jibba Jabba Jibba Jabba is offline
Badge Guru
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,351
Default

Mr Administrator,

I like your badge for a number of reasons.

1. The skilled craftsmanship that has gone into attaching the lugs. There is no sloppy braising.
2. The excellent detail to the bottom scroll and well defined mottling behind the letters.
3. Good reverse detail. The fakes Ive seen have poor reverse detail (blurred).
4. Finally a well formed tail.

If that badge is a repro then its the nearest copy to an original. There could however be a small design change or flaw in the badge which I havent noticed which the people who reproduce the badges include to identify them from the genuine article.

Some people have posted examples with tails that have been struck slightly off centre. These may well be genuine badges but I wouldnt be happy until I owned an example with no problems at all. I'm a bit like a coin collector I want an example in the best condition with the least number of defects.

If I ever obtain an example direct from a vets family I`ll post it here!
__________________
Mr Kipling - Exceedingly good badge books.

Last edited by Jibba Jabba; 21-03-08 at 10:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 27-05-08, 05:15 PM
LONGSHANKS's Avatar
LONGSHANKS LONGSHANKS is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: GREAT BRITAIN
Posts: 3,743
Default I Think This Is A Copy, Any Thoughts

Saw this for sale recently. Any comments, I believe it is a very bad copy. And, any idea on the price for a real double scroll version as I know where I can get one from; but not sure on the price.
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg fent_019.jpg=600.jpeg (53.6 KB, 182 views)
File Type: jpeg fent_020.jpg=600.jpeg (56.2 KB, 107 views)

Last edited by LONGSHANKS; 27-05-08 at 05:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 14-06-10, 06:33 PM
3748 Hussar 3748 Hussar is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
Default 19th Hussars (The Elephant Family).

Hi All,

After discussions with other forum members I thought I should post the much talked about 19th Hussars double scrolled strike.

I have posted 2 variants, see attached photos. All thoughts and views much appreciated.

3748 Hussar
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1010287.jpg (48.9 KB, 240 views)
File Type: jpg P1010288.jpg (61.1 KB, 198 views)

Last edited by 3748 Hussar; 17-06-10 at 08:55 AM. Reason: correction
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 15-06-10, 01:31 PM
peter seaman peter seaman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Selby, Nth Yorks.,
Posts: 182
Default

Hello 3748 Hussar,
I have a genuine 19th H double scroll elephant. The 1st elephant shown, with lugs, is a re-strike having too much detial on the trunk, ear, cheek and knees. The toe nails are totally different too. The badge fitted with a slider is much nearer to being a genuine double scroll badge.
The originals were made with both lugs and sliders. Though it has been suggested (no proof) that only about a dozen were ever produced.
My grandfather, Arthur Fleet, served in the 19th Hussars during the Boer War and WW1. I have lots of 19th H photographs covering the period that the double scroll badge was supposed to have been worn but not one shows it being in use. Does anyone have a clear photograph of this badge being worn?.
All good wishes,
Peter

Last edited by peter seaman; 15-06-10 at 07:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 15-06-10, 02:15 PM
1stTankie's Avatar
1stTankie 1stTankie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 695
Default 19th Hussars Double Scroll Elephant

Hi Peter

Your post is positively one of the most exhilarating contributions to this Forum since I joined. At long, long last we are getting very close to being able to identify the authenticity of the famous "double scroll" elephant with seriously increased degrees of confidence.

I knew Sid Luscombe well from the good old days of badge collecting, we were both members of the Southern Branch of the Military Historical Society, so ably lead by Gordon Dine. We used to meet in the Keep of the castle in Dorchester, formerly the home of the Dorset Regiment, once a month and look at various badges with varying degrees of envy.

One of my fondest memories was the ocassion when Sid (he was never Sidney then) produced the Double Scroll, even in those days a badge of great wonderment. I have to admit I was actually allowed to hold it for a very short while. (I contemplated doing a runner and looked at the arrow slits. My bulk being greater than their width plus the fact we were on the third floor dissuaded me,) but it was a very distinct highlight of my time in this hobby.

You are right in saying that these survived in this country in very small numbers. Hugh King told me he believed there were only six. I wish I knew what happened to the rest.

Hugh King's sold at auction not that long ago. If we could find the present owner and compare the two badges it would give us a baseline for future identifications.

I will PM you on one or two ideas.

Best wishes

Gordon
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-02-11, 07:49 PM
alan g alan g is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 409
Default 19th Hussars H.M.Silver double scroll badge

Please find attached pictures of the badge,
regards
Alan
Attached Images
File Type: jpg elephant 014.jpg (37.2 KB, 402 views)
File Type: jpg elephant 016.jpg (42.0 KB, 323 views)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-02-11, 08:43 PM
paj1 paj1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 760
Default

Hi alan, what do the hallmarks tell us ?
regards paj1
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-02-11, 08:45 PM
alan g alan g is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 409
Default

Hi Paj,
Its Bent and Parker 1902 - 03
Regards
Alan
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
19th hussars, double scroll, elephant

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:34 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.