Pagri badges

[Charlie585]

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[2747andy]

Ry,
I cannot find the link to the old thread, however I'm sure Alan was involved so I hope he reads this and drops something in!

The "Pre Marking" is a theory of mine, which many have poo pooed, but I still think that, perhaps an apprentice or assistant prep'd badges for the attachment of fittings, of course this would be hidden once the fitting was affixed, so it is not often seen, and only in such cases as the badges I've shown above? An order of 100s or 1000s of badges would require the fittings to be in the same position, pre marking would increase production speed as well! How else would the application be so accurate?

I have seen anodised badges with rectangular markings, which I am pretty certain are guide marks for fittings?

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Ry,
As for the Scottish slidered badges, I'm sure we had a perfectly logical explanation a year or so ago, I think it may have been Alan O? I think the answer was that they were for use in the FSH, the slider being more practical than trying to pierce holes to accommodate lugs?

Andy

Which is completely contradicted by my last illustration, showing that the Gordons wore there badge well above the pagri, so a hole would still have to be punched through the FSH.

When I get home I'll bring something to this debate, which you may or may have not seen before as regards a badge fixing for the FSH.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Graham Stewart

Which is completely contradicted by my last illustration, showing that the Gordons wore there badge well above the pagri, so a hole would still have to be punched through the FSH.

When I get home I'll bring something to this debate, which you may or may have not seen before as regards a badge fixing for the FSH.

Graham,

I've not seen a Slidered Gordons, perhaps as you say there was no need? I have or recall seeing the following examples which I believe left the factory with sliders:

RS
RSF
Cameron Hldrs
KOSB

Of course there are the small pattern Cameronians Pipers badges which are found with Regimentally affixed/converted sliders..

Andy

[Charlie585]

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[Toby Purcell]

In 1898 the Suffolk Regt introduced the enclosed badge for both the FSH and the FSC, on the latter replacing the castle collar badge. Note that both badges, silver for officers and GM for ORs, have lugs and not sliders. Presumably the lugs were intended to pierce either a pagri or the helmet itself. The badge was worn until 1902, when it was replaced by the more familiar bi-metal version for wear with the Brodrick cap.

[KLR]

There are plenty of photographs of Scottish soldiers wearing 1st WW hospital 'blues'. These invariably show them wearing their own regimental badge on a peaked cap ! That said, I find it hard to believe that the WO (or whoever) authorised slidered Scots badges to be made just for hospital wear !

I agree with Graham - and also noted earlier - that metal badges were usually / very often worn above the pagri, straight on the body of the FSH. Surely it was easier for those early lugged badges (ie c1896-1903) to penetrate stiff cork rather than 7 floppy folds of cloth !?

[davec2]

Originally Posted by Charlie585

Hi Andy,

I accept the possibility that Dave's badges could have been produce for the reason that you state whether for the FSH or Slouch hat. Do you have a link to the thread, it would be interesting to see the basis of Alan's theory.

As to your badge, we really are getting into the nitty gritty of badge production here. I have no referrence to the production process I'm afraid but it does seem odd that a batch of badges destined to be fitted with sliders has traces of brazes where loops would normally be affixed.

I suppose it is possible that as part of the mass production process the badges were pre primed with braze prior to the fitting of the loops, I have certainly carried out a similar form of preparation as part of a post manufacture repair process. I would have thought though that the fitting of lugs would have been a single stage process.

Perhaps Dave could shed some light on this matter, any opinion Dave?

Regards

Ry

Hi Ry and everyone else,

As for my slidered Scottish badges, I am convinced that they are genuine so I will just put them back in my drawer regardless of an explanation and leave them there, I'm still none the wiser, everyone keeps going off at a tangent and I can't keep up, nothing new there then

As for pre-marking badges, I know I'm getting on but I didn't actually serve an apprenticeship around the turn of the centuary, so like everyone else, I can only surmise.

I have spoken to both 2747andy and to a lesser degree magpie and Wilf, who seem to dis-agree with him and his theory but I haven't the experience to come down solidly on one side or t'other and I don't want to sit on the fence either !

With my equipment, I cannot heat a brazed lug up sufficiently hot enough to just pull it off, I have seen the remnants of removed lugs and it invariably leaves a witness and I don't mean someone who later, while giving evidence, has to swear on the bible ???

When I see a badge with a faint trace of braze where a lug could have meant to be fitted, I am more inclined to think ( for think, read think, I wasn't there ), that it could be some form of indication, whether it was done as 2747andy suggests, I couldn't begin to imagine but there has to be a reason, so far in my very short collecting life, every time I have seen a badge with a lug removed, the braze has been quite rough.

I think Andy ( magpie ) will agree, you need ' oxy-acetylene ' to heat metal for brazing, trying to remove a lug using ' oxy-a ' could lead to several problems, the first being over heating and as such, destroying the property of said metal but I will re-iterate again, I am not an expert.........

I do know that in a lot of manufacturing processes, indicators are left on the reverse of the badge during stamping/casting, I recently put lugs on quite a few for a friend in Austarlia but I'm inclined to think that the issue of pre-marking prior to fixing lugs/sliders will probably have to be a case of agreeing to disagreeing, what can I say................................oops, I nearly fell off the fence I didn't want to sit on

Anyone who disagrees with me is quite entitled to, If I'm mistaken in my beliefs, it won't be the first time ???

Dave.

PS, Sorry folks, " yawn "................................................. .................................................. ....

[orasot]

Quite right Dave, Andy has said it is a theory of his, which he happens to believe, no evidence either way on this. I on the other hand don't believe this, I'm not having a pop at Andy either just airing my views. It would be good to try to get to the bottom of this though, I can just imagine the badge collecting fraternity in 50 years time reading Andy's book & still discussing his theory, not a problem if it's stated as that but can't be stated as fact with no proof obviously. With reference to Dave's point about the heat, if the people fixing the lugs in the first place had the heat to do it, they would have had the same to melt it again to remove them surely ?? And just a point about saving time on labour, surely it would waste a lot of time putting flux on a badge,heating it then brazing a blob on to mark it, then do it again when putting lugs on, why not just do it once, & with the same point of fixing, surely when you are sitting there doing one after another you'd know where they go after doing 2 !! Just my thoughts again but I have a feeling this one won't go away
Wilf.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by orasot

Quite right Dave, Andy has said it is a theory of his, which he happens to believe, no evidence either way on this. I on the other hand don't believe this, I'm not having a pop at Andy either just airing my views. It would be good to try to get to the bottom of this though, I can just imagine the badge collecting fraternity in 50 years time reading Andy's book & still discussing his theory, not a problem if it's stated as that but can't be stated as fact with no proof obviously. With reference to Dave's point about the heat, if the people fixing the lugs in the first place had the heat to do it, they would have had the same to melt it again to remove them surely ?? And just a point about saving time on labour, surely it would waste a lot of time putting flux on a badge,heating it then brazing a blob on to mark it, then do it again when putting lugs on, why not just do it once, & with the same point of fixing, surely when you are sitting there doing one after another you'd know where they go after doing 2 !! Just my thoughts again but I have a feeling this one won't go away
Wilf.

Wilf!

"No it won't" lol... I'll get to the bottom of it! Those who know me, will know that once I get my teeth into something, I'm not easily put off..

Hope you all have a great weekend!

Andy

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by davec2

Hi Ry and everyone else,
As for pre-marking badges, I know I'm getting on but I didn't actually serve an apprenticeship around the turn of the centuary, so like everyone else, I can only surmise.

I have spoken to both 2747andy and to a lesser degree magpie and Wilf, who seem to dis-agree with him and his theory but I haven't the experience to come down solidly on one side or t'other and I don't want to sit on the fence either !

With my equipment, I cannot heat a brazed lug up sufficiently hot enough to just pull it off, I have seen the remnants of removed lugs and it invariably leaves a witness and I don't mean someone who later, while giving evidence, has to swear on the bible ???

When I see a badge with a faint trace of braze where a lug could have meant to be fitted, I am more inclined to think ( for think, read think, I wasn't there ), that it could be some form of indication, whether it was done as 2747andy suggests, I couldn't begin to imagine but there has to be a reason, so far in my very short collecting life, every time I have seen a badge with a lug removed, the braze has been quite rough.

I think Andy ( magpie ) will agree, you need ' oxy-acetylene ' to heat metal for brazing, trying to remove a lug using ' oxy-a ' could lead to several problems, the first being over heating and as such, destroying the property of said metal but I will re-iterate again, I am not an expert.........

I do know that in a lot of manufacturing processes, indicators are left on the reverse of the badge during stamping/casting, I recently put lugs on quite a few for a friend in Austarlia but I'm inclined to think that the issue of pre-marking prior to fixing lugs/sliders will probably have to be a case of agreeing to disagreeing, what can I say................................oops, I nearly fell off the fence I didn't want to sit on

Anyone who disagrees with me is quite entitled to, If I'm mistaken in my beliefs, it won't be the first time ???

Dave.

PS, Sorry folks, " yawn "................................................. .................................................. ....

OK I'll make no excuses the technical aspects of fitting either sliders or lugs to badges are just not my thing. However if I was that concerned, surely a letter to badge manufacturers concerning the processes at the turn of the century, possibly with the aspect of a visit, could help you solve this process once and for all.

Considering that badges have always been produced on an industrial scale - after all it's not a cottage industry. Then surely the clue lies with the fact that as the lugs/sliders etc are nearly always perfectly placed, then surely you have look at some form of automated system although primitive. I worked in a factory forty years ago, using machinery that must have been twenty years old then, but it all still worked perfectly.

There again I'm from that old school of, "if you're not sure - ask".

[davec2]

Hi Stewart,

Good morning, perhaps you should be directing your remarks towards Andy or Wilf, I'm not really bothered about pre-marking or not , I was just replying to Ry's prompt.

On a personal note, I have in the past, written to Firmin on two occasions and I have been totally ignored , so writing doesn't necessarily equate to finding solutions.

I am, I must admit, more interested in finding the answers to my original question re short sliders on Scottish badges , a couple of people have touched on suggestions but no real answer, as of yet...........

All the best.

Dave.

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by davec2

Hi Stewart,

Good morning, perhaps you should be directing your remarks towards Andy or Wilf, I'm not really bothered about pre-marking or not , I was just replying to Ry's prompt.

On a personal note, I have in the past, written to Firmin on two occasions and I have been totally ignored , so writing doesn't necessarily equate to finding solutions.

I am, I must admit, more interested in finding the answers to my original question re short sliders on Scottish badges , a couple of people have touched on suggestions but no real answer, as of yet...........

All the best.

Dave.

Ooooops - saw the post and thought you required answers regarding the manufacturing process. Must be annoying if no-one answers your letters too. Any joy with Smith & Wright or any of the others?

Regarding the attaching of the Gordons badge, plus the Shako and H.S. plate which have also been illustrated - I think the jury has come firmly out on "lugs" simply because of the positioning. Few - if any badges I've ever seen worn with the FSH are ever placed covering the pagri itself, most sitting well up and above it.

I'm still trawling around for other illustration of Jocks wearing badges with the FSH, but no luck todate. However I've attached these two of the Seaforth Highlanders, taken in Crete in the late c.1888/9. In the foreground is the Band of the Searforths clearly wearing a hackle to the left of their white FSH. Closer examination seems to imply the hackle is worn above what appears to be a cloth patch, which is possibly the scarlet cut down shoulder title.

post-8375-0-68159900-1295567795.jpg post-8375-0-80104000-1295567686.jpg
Seaforth Band in the foreground. With thanks to the GMIC

[Graham Stewart]

You lads are probably bored to tears with this now, but here's a couple of more FSH's for you to observe and a genuine cloth title for the same. Again with thanks to the GMIC.

4thLancs.jpg post-9231-126702495324.jpg
post-9231-126702481814.jpg GHOfficers1860s[1].jpg

[Graham Stewart]

post-1678-127321985174.jpg
Duke of Wellingtons title for the FSH