RND cap badges - Page 10 - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Neil Pearce · #**136** 31-05-12, 05:39 PM

Paddy

First time I have seen your album I think, and some nice items there. One rarely sees a straight "RND" title, much less a pair. Have also not seen the small Nelson Badge before? Is this slidered too? I guess you get the pick of the bunch in your neck of the woods

I totally agree with you re the sliders, for what it's worth.

Cheers, Neil

Nozzer · #**137** 31-05-12, 07:41 PM

Thanks for that eparges

Has the tally been worn and are the ends cut in a swallows tail or flat? Nice to see that there are no pin holes (as far as I can see). It horrifies me when I see tallies mounted using pins

Once a pin goes through a tally, the hole will always be visible

Anyhow, I have pulled this badge out for a closer look. I am not sure on it because I was always told that it should have a Gaunt tablet. Opinions welcome

Paddy · #**138** 31-05-12, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil Pearce

Paddy

First time I have seen your album I think, and some nice items there. One rarely sees a straight "RND" title, much less a pair. Have also not seen the small Nelson Badge before? Is this slidered too? I guess you get the pick of the bunch in your neck of the woods

I totally agree with you re the sliders, for what it's worth.

Cheers, Neil

Neil

Many thanks, I was surprised when I won the straight titles last year for the princely sum of £5.70, just seemed like no-one else was bidding that night. As for having the pick of the bunch down here, I wish, I think the only badge I got down here was the Cap Tally which I got about 3 weeks ago and about 3 miles up the road.

Andy, I'm not a big fan of your Hood badge, mainly because of the font on the 2 scrolls and the head of the bird, mainly around the eye area.

Paddy

kitchener · #**139** 31-05-12, 09:25 PM

Hi. Whether R.N.D. cap badges had a Gaunt plaque or not is academic. The concensus among the badge collectors i know is that if the badge does not have the said plaque they will not buy it and consider it a copy. So if genuine R.N.D. badges without plaques are out there its tough titty. One point i will say is that John Gaylor mentions nothing about plaques on these badges nor does Wilkinson or anyone else to my knowledge but i will admit i have not read every badge book. I think it is a case of 'Give a dog a bad name.' But heres a pause for thought. I have two R.N.D. badges Hawke and a Nelson one with plaque and one without. Both came from the same household with ships post cards, memorabilia. and medals ect. But to the capbadge collecting fraternity i have one genuine and one copy. Such a shame that us badge collectors when it comes down to it, bury our heads in the sand. KITCHENER

Paddy · #**140** 31-05-12, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitchener

Hi. Whether R.N.D. cap badges had a Gaunt plaque or not is academic. The concensus among the badge collectors i know is that if the badge does not have the said plaque they will not buy it and consider it a copy. So if genuine R.N.D. badges without plaques are out there its tough titty. One point i will say is that John Gaylor mentions nothing about plaques on these badges nor does Wilkinson or anyone else to my knowledge but i will admit i have not read every badge book. I think it is a case of 'Give a dog a bad name.' But heres a pause for thought. I have two R.N.D. badges Hawke and a Nelson one with plaque and one without. Both came from the same household with ships post cards, memorabilia. and medals ect. But to the capbadge collecting fraternity i have one genuine and one copy. Such a shame that us badge collectors when it comes down to it, bury our heads in the sand. KITCHENER

Not strictly true Kitchener, (not all collectors), while I made a conscious decision to wait for badges with Gaunt plaques I don't for one minute believe that the only good RND badge is one with a plaque which is why I hold on to the unmarked Nelson badge I have. Of the 2 badges you mention I would hazard a guess that the unmarked one you have is the Nelson badge and it is probably very similar to the one I have attached below (there, I've set myself up to be shot down

). While I am not 100% convinced either way I am still holding on to it as I believe there is a chance, albeit slim, that it is a good one. I don't believe Gaylor or Wilkinson mention maker's names on any other corps/regiment's etc badges so why should they mention it for RND badges? and I don't believe either book gives much help to anyone in determining good from bad. Of the 6 Bn badges I have seen unmarked Nelson, Howe & Hawke badges that could well be good but never seen Drake, Anson or Hood badges that I would consider to be right. Would like to see pics of your 2 badges for reference.

Paddy

Rockape · #**141** 31-05-12, 11:30 PM

Hi Eparges,

According to Everett Sharp, moderator at Oxford WW1 archive, the Broderick cap was issued to new recruits during 1914 (about the time when the RND was being formed) as there were not enough peak service caps to go around. The 33mm badge is the size of the collar badge and with the long slider could suggest that this unusual badge that would be tailor made for the broderick cap with its single hole.

Regards

Chrisr · #**142** 01-06-12, 04:52 AM

Paddy,

This is a genuine badge of the same pattern as yours. This type of the Nelson badge is normally judged to be a bad'n based simply because someone in the 1970's said it was a dud. There may have been re-strikes of it about, but that doesn't make all of them duds.

This one was purchased in Western Australia in 1962 from an elderely badge collector who was selling his collection. The whole set, including the RNAS armoured car badge, was on purple velvet, very faded except behind the badges. He had collected them in the 1920s or 1930's. When I first posted it on the forum, at least one member rescued one from his duds box.

Only one of the seven badges had a Gaunt plate, so the claim that 99.9% have a guant badge seems to be based on heresay, whch in turn becomes accpeted fact, hence some collectors turn down genuine badges. This Nelson badge indicates there may have been more than maker.

I think we have to be very careful when proferring advice on what is genuine and what is not. The problem is that in some cases the judgement is based on heresay. Clearly there are many duds out there, but we seem to accept slight variations in certain regimental badges, but absolutely no variations in others.

Its a shame that some badges that could well be genuine are confined to duds box based purely on speculation of hand me down information about some minor variation, or that they must have a gaunt tablet.

Regards
Chris

Chrisr · #**143** 01-06-12, 05:10 AM

Here's the Hawk badge from the same collection (1962). It also has quite different lugs on it - flat horizontal.

Regards
Chris

Tinto · #**144** 01-06-12, 05:13 AM

Hi All,
This is an interesting thread. I agree with Chris that there are good RND badges without the Gaunt plaque. I believe there may also be some fake RND badges with Gaunt plaques attached.
Cheers, Tinto

Chrisr · #**145** 01-06-12, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyh

Anyhow, I have pulled this badge out for a closer look. I am not sure on it because I was always told that it should have a Gaunt tablet. Opinions welcome

Andy,

This is the Hood badge from the 1962 collection.

Regards
Chris

TRT · #**146** 01-06-12, 02:55 PM

Paddy,

Thanks for your reply, was not knocking your album and with the updates a very useful guide...thanks.

Re Nelson badge minus plaque, my first was the same but I upgraded to a Gaunt version. Both were supplied (and swapped) by the same dealer Rod Flood and both were considered good. I wanted a Gaunt version and Rod was happy to exchange.

Re the sliders for Brodericks, as the RND battalions did not have cap badges until mid 1916 this theory is a non started for me. Sliders on badges = copy.

Good thread BTW and Paddy, yer cant have me RND Machine Gun badge!!!!

Regards to all

TRT

Alan O · #**147** 01-06-12, 05:01 PM

Great photos. I have an identical Nelson badge that I also consider genuine despite the lack of plaques.

I would not buy a slidered version my self either.

Rockape · #**148** 01-06-12, 05:27 PM

Here is the example I have for RND MG. Like most people who collect in this area, I do so with trepidation.

Nozzer · #**149** 01-06-12, 06:27 PM

I find this an interesting subject and one that I would like to learn more about. Were these badges made by the supplier or, as I have read were they made in RND workshops from MGC cap badges and RND shoulder titles. If the latter is the case, would we not see evidence of the lugs having been removed

Staffsyeoman · #**150** 01-06-12, 07:18 PM

The received wisdom is that they were done in workshops in the field, and were not an 'official' pattern. I have never seen an official pattern for this - so it is a faker's charter. For my money, Rockape's badge looks like a genuine MGC cap badge and a genuine RND title. But whether they were put together in 1916 or 1996.. I can't say.