More early Indians need identifying please.

[Lampwick]

Hi Peter, Henk, Gurkha, anyone!! Can I please have some help identifying the badges marked with a letter or number? I've gone very woolly and can't remember half of what I knew. No.1 is NOT Associated British Cinemas!! Thanks in advance. Terry















1. Army Bearers Corps
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26 CALCUTTA PORT DEFENCE VOLUNTEER CORPS, Artillery Company
27
28
29
30 The Southern Shan States Battalion
31 The 4th Battalion Special Armed Constabulary..Mahar Special Armed Constabulary
32 19th Lancers [King George V’s Own]
33 Sappers and Miners
34 Musician’s badge, ??? State Forces
35 State Forces Training School
37 28th Regiment of Foot
38 13th [Duke of Connaughts Own Bombay] Lancers
39 6th Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers
40 4th Duke of Cambridge's Own Hodson Horse
41 16th Light Cavalry.
42 21st King George's Own Central India Horse
43 8th Bengal Lancers
44 Govenor-General's Bodyguard
45 1st Duke of Yorks's Own Skinner's Horse
46 18th King George's Own Tiwana Lancers
47 same as 39 above
48 18th Prince of Wales's Own Tiwana Lancers
49 23rd Cavalry
50 5th (Probyn's) Horse
51 8th King George's Own Light Cavalry
52 Presidential Body Guard
53 6th Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers
54 20th Lancers
55 30th Cavalry
56 15 Lancers (Cureton's Multani).
57 22 Cavalry
a
b
c
d 3RD (NIZAM'S OWN) GOLCONDA LANCERS . HYDERABAD
e 3RD (NIZAM'S OWN) GOLCONDA LANCERS . HYDERABAD
f
g
h
i

[ANGLE IRON]

1 is Army bearer corps, The state forces ones are more tricky, Kev

[ANGLE IRON]

The large steel badge with no fasteners is 45th Rattray's Sikhs cox 2448, Kev

[ANGLE IRON]

D pos e also 3RD (NIZAM'S OWN) GOLCONDA LANCERS . HYDERABAD

[gurkharifles]

Hi there, I can only offer opinions on the Gurkha badges:
No.30 is The Southern Shan States Battalion 1904 > 1940 and every example I've ever seen has the "broken S".
No 31 is The 4th Battalion Special Armed Constabulary a para military police unit in India.

As for your other Gurkha badges "real or fake" - my gut instinct is there real.
The 9th GR with the KC is the one that's most reproduced - but the patina on yours looks better than the modern ones ( difficult to say without handling them ) but if I saw them on e-bay I'd bid for them!

Tim

[Wmr-RHB]

I have to go now, but will come backk on this.

For some badges a better picture might be usefull to be able to read the scrolls. But hen again, the quality of the badges will not allways allow that reading

[Wmr-RHB]

I went for the cavalry today. Hope this helps.

38. when the scroll reads DUKE OF CONNAUGHT"S OWN it is post 1922: 13th Duke of Connaught's Own Bombay Lancers, retitled in 1927: 13th Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers.

39. post 1922: 6th Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers, in 1924 subtitle added: (Watson's Horse).

40. post 1922: 4th Duke of Cambridge's Own Hodson Horse, from 1927: Hodson's Hors (4th Duke of Cambridge's Own).

41. post 1922: 16th Light Cavalry.

42. post 1922: 21st King George's Own Central India Horse, 1927: The Central India Horse (21st King George's Own Horse), 1937: The Central India Horse (21st King George V's Own Horse).

43. 1903: 8th Bengal Lancers, 1904-1922: 8th Cavalry.

44. Govenor-General's Bodyguard.

45. post 1922: 1st Duke of Yorks's Own Skinner's Horse, 1927: Skinner's Horse (1st Duke of York's Own).

46. 1910-1922: 18th King George's Own Tiwana Lancers.

47. same as 39 above.

48. 1906-1910: 18th Prince of Wales's Own Tiwana Lancers (then renamed into 46 above).

49. reading from the badge: 23rd Cavalry, either post independent India or Pakistan. Both created new regiments. When we take the badge as starting point then we can say that it looks very much like the 1st(Skinner's) Horse which went to India. Thus I assume the 23rd was raised from the 1st in the Indian Army. Just a guess.

50. I am not 100% sure, but this is the pre indepedency badge of the 5th (Probyn's) Horse which went to Pakistan. The scroll should read PROBYN'S HORSE.

51. 1922: 8th King George's Own Light Cavalry, 1937: 8th King George V's Own Light Cavalry.

52. Pakistan: Presidential Body Guard (both countries have such a follower of 44 above.

53. ? Maybe same as 39 above, but the scroll is missing.

54. 1922: 20th Lancers.

55. 30th Cavalry, must be post independence Pakistan or India.

56. pre 1922: 15 Lancers (Cureton's Multani).

57. ? The scroll is unreadable to me, badge says 22 CAV, either post independence or pre 1922 (but I doubt the last).

[Lampwick]

Thanks Henk. I knew you would come up with the goods!

[Wmr-RHB]

I have an additional remark to 54 (numbered 34 by incident in your pics).

The 20th Lancers went to the Indian army, and I have seen a badge for it which is about the same, but with the additions of the Ashoka lions.

But the Pakistan army has re-raised a 20th Lancers which (according to Wikipedia) seems to use the same badge as 54. Thus it could also be the post independence Pakistan 20th Lancers.

You have the badge. Maybe you can decide on the material, etc.

[Lampwick]

Thaks Henk. These are all older badges so I'm assuming that it's an original 20th. Have you ever seen the 'CC Rangers' badge before? I can't find anything on the internet. It's pinned E/W on the rear.

[Wmr-RHB]

As you may have seen, I have dated several badges as post independence. And you may doubt I am correct, but not about the Pakistani Presidential Body Guard I presume.

Saying they are "older" (then what) thus is not an argument to date the 20th L being British-Indian or Pakistani.

And no, I never saw a badge like you show. I wouldn't even know if it is subcontinental or not.
(I found a Rangers Cycling Club in Towcester, Northants. Does that explain the rose? )

[peter monahan]

31 – Mahar Special Armed Constabulary
32 19th Lancers [King George V’s Own] from 1937-147, possibly post Independence [no crown]
33 possibly Sappers and Miners – post ’47 India, I think
34 musician’s badge, ??? State Forces
35 State Forces – letters on top read “ ? ? P C T S” - ??? Training School?
37 British 28th Regiment of Foot
38 13th [Duke of Connaughts Own Bombay] Lancers - badge worn 1922-1947
39 6th [Duke of Connaughts Own] Lancers - badge worn 1922-1947
40 Hodson’s Horse [4th Duke Of Cambridge Own] - badge worn 1927-1947
41 16th Light Cavalry - badge worn 1922-1947
42 21st [King George’s Own] Central India Horse – naming changed twice 1922-1947 but this is probably the 1922 -1927 version
43 8th [King George’s Own] Light Cavalry - badge worn 1922-1947
44 Governor General’s Body Guard – India, pre-‘47
45

b Hyderabad State Forces – all those with the odd ‘crown’ [hat] at the top.
c, , , g, & h - all Hyderabad units - This one may be post Partition – just looking at the quality Hyderabad had at least 10 Infantry regiments, cavalry, artillery, service corps and so on


The regular Indian Army cavalry numbered 1-21 after the 1922 re-organization, of which the 20th was a training regiment . Prior to that there were 39 units. However, during the First War, additional regiments, including a 40th, 41st and 42nd were raised fro service on the NWF. So, numbers higher than 21 are almost certainly post '47. The 30th is an Indian armoured regiment. I wasn't aware that both India and Pakistan had raised '22nd' regiments but it could very well be true.

Great fun, this!
Peter

[ANGLE IRON]

Henk has a good point re the 20th Lancers, The post independence Indian unit has the lions of Ashoka at the top, The Pakistan version is the one in Lampwick's collection, The pre independence badge has a crown at the intersection of the lance's.Number 32 is 19th Lancers Pakistan, Kev

[Gurkha]

Hi ya,
Just had a chance to have a look. 30 as already mentioned is the southern shan states 1904-40 a para military force these badges turn up regulary at fairs. Re the gurkha bits. the '43' looks ok and I have not seen any fakes around yet! it dates from 1891-1903 and became the 2nd Batt 8th GR. The black 8th difficult to date as still worn by I.A 8 GR, is worn on red patch on the 'Hat Felt Gurkha'. The Black 9th looks a bit messy and was worn 1925-38. Difficult to tell from the picture But I'm not happy with it as it should be pierced at the top of the nine between the blades. The later 9th with the crown, widely reproduced, with the reproductions of a good quality, difficult to say. The XXV & 26th I wouldnt bid on either, so widely copied. black gloss paint is a bad sign.
So to sum up I'd be happy with the 43, 8th, need to see the WM 9th, with out handling it i would not bid on it. Others i'd leave alone

regards
Steve

[Lampwick]

Thanks Steve. The 9th is pierced, it's just gunked up with the black paint as shown in the pic of the reverse.