Small Arms & Musketry

[manchesters]

Toby,

Its bad form to go back and edit your posts, changing their whole context and adding pictures as it makes my subsequent posts seem unconnected.

If you have a comment to add then do so in sequence.

The only original badges you have now added are with the standard KC and not the ridiculously large one that this thread relates to.

You clearly cannot back up your claims with any evidence.

By the way its number 704 in Martin Marsh's catalogue!!

regards

[Luke H]

The badge is a Martin Marsh fantasy item. I’ve not see it included in seminal work or any primary source, sealed pattern etc. Until a photograph of it in wear surfaces, which I would be amazed, it remains for me a fantasy badge.

Also note the hollow jewels. Incredibly few genuine metal badges are designed with such a trait, however this characteristic is present on great many of the 1970s fake dies.

[grenadierguardsman]

Would it be possible to have this Martin Marsh catalogue put somewhere on the Forum, for all to see and use ? If it's not already.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

I can only suggest that you check out the corps history, although it makes no mention of the badge in use for rank and sadly has not used very many photos at all in order to keep costs down, given that it is full of extensive data. Nevertheless, it is very specific about the large crown badge and its introduction. History of the Small Arms School Corps 1853-2017, ISBN 978-1-912866-21-2. The book has made full use of the corps archives.

I'm not quite sure how many times I have to say that I accept that there are copies, restrikes, 'fantasy badges', whatever you want to call them.

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Would it be possible to have this Martin Marsh catalogue put somewhere on the Forum, for all to see and use ? If it's not already.
Andy

It already is.

Luke did it a while ago.

Just go into albums and search Martin Marsh.

regards

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I can only suggest that you check out the corps history, although it makes no mention of the badge in use for rank and sadly has not used very many photos at all in order to keep costs down, given that it is full of extensive data. Nevertheless, it is very specific about the large crown badge and its introduction. History of the Small Arms School Corps 1853-2017, ISBN 978-1-912866-21-2. The book has made full use of the corps archives.

I'm not quite sure how many times I have to say that I accept that there are copies, restrikes, 'fantasy badges', whatever you want to call them.

To have a copy you need an original and there isnt one.

The evidence is there in black and white in the MM catalogue, two of us have pointed that out now, just change the record.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by manchesters

To have a copy you need an original and there isnt one.

The evidence is there in black and white in the MM catalogue, two of us have pointed that out now, just change the record.

I haven’t been offensive to you. Two of you quoting from a list of badges in a catalogue is irrelevant. What possible reason could there be for a corps history, involving careful scholarship, and using its own documentary archives, to make something up?

[manchesters]

I give up but no doubt you will want the last word..............................

[mike_vee]

Originally Posted by manchesters

It already is.

Luke did it a while ago.

Just go into albums and search Martin Marsh.

regards

As far as I can tell the album is "private" and will not show up when searched for. Members need an invite to be able to access/view the album.

[Frank Kelley]

Just to add my own thoughts, not that they are needed, I too, think both are rubbish and the top example is completely spurious.

Originally Posted by Third Tankie

Hi,

Two badges for opinions please.

Thanks

Kevin

[3dg]

Why are people not being open minded.
There is always a suprise appears in the badge collecting world, a badge we thought was never worn etc etc.
Yes, this large crown crossed rifles badge may have been copied to death, and why not from an original die, the COPIES will be in the MMarsh but as I said, we have to keep an open mind, these badges may have existed.
If someone with experience, like Toby, says they have seen these badges worn, then we have to take that on bored, and try and seek out there existance, not just right it off because it's in the M Marsh catalogue, or they have been made in many metals, or because someone said They're fake etc etc.
Come on, that's what these forums are about, not to get all wound up because someone decides to edit their post, it's all pointless bickering.
If someone has seen the badge worn, especially on period photos, then its not a fantasy item, just more research is required, and it's obvious to me the fakes of this badge are from the original die, that's why it appears in the MM.
That's all I have to say, people need to chill, especially in these strange times.

Stay safe all

Chris

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by 3dg

Why are people not being open minded.
There is always a suprise appears in the badge collecting world, a badge we thought was never worn etc etc.

Yes, this large crown crossed rifles badge may have been copied to death, and why not from an original die, the COPIES will be in the MMarsh but as I said, we have to keep an open mind, these badges may have existed.

If someone has seen the badge worn, especially on period photos, then its not a fantasy item, just more research is required, and it's obvious to me the fakes of this badge are from the original die, that's why it appears in the MM.

I don’t believe I have been closed minded. As I said in my post ‘until a photograph of it in wear surfaces, which I would be amazed, it remains for me a fantasy badge.’ If I’m shown a photo of it I will change my view however I’d put my mortgage on no such photo existing pre-1970s.

The vast majority of the badges, over 90%, in MM are out and out fakes from newly created fake dies. There are comparatively very few ‘true restrikes’ from original FN and Gaunt dies within the catalogue.

Additionally as I’ve said in other posts we have cases in modernity where PRI purchase items have been sourced from MM and other fakers for wear. Such items as I’ve stated before become a grey area in terms of authenticity. My personal opinion is that it would make any badge actually physically worn genuine but would not give credence to the die itself and would not therefore make the thousands of fakes, restrikes, fantasy items preceding it genuine. This scenario is the only one which I feel could be the case with this badge but could again be post 1970s.

Stylistically this badge strikes me as being made by the hand of fakers. My rationale is the crown and jewels or rather that they are not jewels at all just hollow outlines. I would love for anyone to show me a KC or QVC period die stamped cap/arm badge with identical sunken jewels that have no actual substance and are merely outlines. So often with fakes the quality and fine detail of the crown is lacking, as it is here. Victorian, Edwardian and Georgian engravers were frankly better than this with their craft.

The hollow jewels do however appear in MM on the following fakes: 25th London Cyclists, QVC 4th Hussars, QVC 7th Hussars, QVC 8th Hussars ... I could go on but this is from memory.

I’ve attached pictures of several other fantasy badges. Re your last point, the reason they appear in MM is to sell, nothing more.

And perhaps finally that MM himself claims it to be a large helmet badge.

Moreover I think on this one the burden of proof is on Toby. Otherwise we enter into debates about double scroll Nelly pagri badges and SWB militia battalion glengarry’s potentially being real when there is a landslide of evidence to the contrary.

I do not consider myself a naysayer but given the above I would need to see this photo before I believe.

[manchesters]

Well said Luke and totally agree.

regards

[Third Tankie]

Hi all,

Thanks for the differing opinions and lively discussions on the School of Infantry, large crown, crossed rifle badge.
I found this on a Great War forum and of interest the Snco front centre in the greatcoat. Photo is winter 1914/15.
Hope this helps.

Kevin

[manchesters]

Kevin,

he is wearing the standard SofM Kings Crown cap badge, which of course will be on a slider.

regards