KC ASC collar badges

[fougasse1940]

Interestingly, there are three different 1901-1918 ASC cap badge versions and apparently also three different collar badge versions, although different in design to the cap badges.

The cap badge went from the 1901-1911 version (top left) with the free standing crown, 33 laurel leaves in threes on each side and 'thin' monogram and 'wrong' garter tongue to the 1911-1915 identical badge (top middle) but for the crown lowered onto the garter to the 1915-1918 version (top right) with 'thick' monogram, correct garter tongue and buckle and 17 leaves in each side.

The 1901-1911 collar badge starts out pretty much as its victorian predecessor with 'thin' monogram, incorrect garter tongue and absent buckle, free standing crown and laurel leaves in six rows of three.

Not shown here, as I still have to source one, is the 1911-1916 equivalent collar badge with raised crown, 'broad' monogram, correct garter and six rows of three leaves (Kellock & McHenry 2-26).

The 1916-1918 equivalent collar badge (not shown in Kellock/McHenry), features a crown lowered onto the garter, correct garter buckle and tongue, 'broad' monogram and leaves in six rows of two.

What strikes me is how small these collars actually are, the 1901-1911 version is just 28 x 25 mm, but looks much smaller due to the protruding points of the star. The 1916-1918 version is only 29 x 13 mm.

Information based upon the 'The origin and variations of the R.A.S.C. badge' article in the August 1963 MHS Bulletin by Charles Thomas and Kellock & McHenry's 'Badges and insignia of the RASC, RCT & their predecessors'.

Rgds, Thomas.

[leigh kitchen]

Thanks,I had no such info concerning badges of that period, only later RASC (courtesy of Crown Imperial).
Only one version of WWI economy?

[2747andy]

Thomas,
The three cap stars you show appear to be "Officer's"/OSD badges, there was not the same subsequent designs/patterns of ORs cap stars. The collars however appear to be ORs? I beleive the OSD collar badges worn with the three cap badges you show would have been the same size and pattern but with lug fittings?

Andy

[GTB]

Hi
Would this be a separate collar type?
(Size: 29 x 22mm)

GTB

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Thomas,
The three cap stars you show appear to be "Officer's"/OSD badges, there was not the same subsequent designs/patterns of ORs cap stars. The collars however appear to be ORs? I beleive the OSD collar badges worn with the three cap badges you show would have been the same size and pattern but with lug fittings?

Andy

Correct, two out of the three OSD badges are lugged and thus collars. I've shown them just to illustrate the three different designs.
There also seem to be OR's cap badges of all three patterns. First one is in Charles Thomas plate II No. 6, second one is in Kellock & McHenry 2-16, and third one although single piece only, is well known.

Yes, the collars shown are OR's.

Rgds, Thomas.

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by GTB

Hi
Would this be a separate collar type?
(Size: 29 x 22mm)

GTB

Looks like the the 1911-1916 equivalent collar badge. The one missing from my first post. Is it OSD or patinated?

Rgds, Thomas.

[Tinto]

Hi Thomas,
Here is an enamelled collar badge, presumably for officer's.
Cheers, Tinto

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

Correct, two out of the three OSD badges are lugged and thus collars. I've shown them just to illustrate the three different designs.
There also seem to be OR's cap badges of all three patterns. First one is in Charles Thomas plate II No. 6, second one is in Kellock & McHenry 2-16, and third one although single piece only, is well known.

Yes, the collars shown are OR's.

Rgds, Thomas.

Thomas,
I do not have access to either if the references you mention, however I disagree that any of the three full size badges you show have an equivalent ORs version, the closest would be the c.1916 all Gm non voided "Economy" cap star, of which there are a few variations. All ASC ORs cap stars with the exception of the above were voided.

Andy

[GTB]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

Looks like the the 1911-1916 equivalent collar badge. The one missing from my first post. Is it OSD or patinated?

Rgds, Thomas.

Badge is bronze but not entirely sure if OSD.

GTB

[GTB]

Originally Posted by Tinto

Hi Thomas,
Here is an enamelled collar badge, presumably for officer's.
Cheers, Tinto

Or perhaps a Sweetheart?

GTB

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Thomas,
I do not have access to either if the references you mention, however I disagree that any of the three full size badges you show have an equivalent ORs version, the closest would be the c.1916 all Gm non voided "Economy" cap star, of which there are a few variations. All ASC ORs cap stars with the exception of the above were voided.

Andy

Andy, they are both photographed! See also K&K Vol. 1 p. 255-256 although K&K make no mention of the raised crown version.

Rgds, Thomas.

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by Tinto

Hi Thomas,
Here is an enamelled collar badge, presumably for officer's.
Cheers, Tinto

An officers 1901-1918 collar badge, apparently the officers collar badge didn't change during this period according to both sources.

Rgds, Thomas.

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by GTB

Badge is bronze but not entirely sure if OSD.

GTB

What makes you doubt it is an OSD collar?

Rgds, Thomas.

[GTB]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

What makes you doubt it is an OSD collar?

Rgds, Thomas.

Before getting mired in any misunderstanding.

When I refer to OSD I am actually referring to OSD bz - the various shades of matt chocolate brown and which was also applied to some degree over the whole badge, including the back (although I stand corrected here if this isn't always the case).

You asked whether it was OSD or patinated. Going by my explanation above, I doubt it is 'OSD bz'. And it is not patinated. I have reached these conclusions by checking the back of badge and the metal is lighter in colour. So apparently, only the face was 'bronzed'.

I suppose that what I have is an officer's bronze collar badge. As bronze was only worn (to my knowledge) on Officers Service Dress, then technically speaking, it would be an OSD collar badge. It may possibly have been manufactured at one of the smaller badge makers hence differing in appearance from the normal finish of OSD bz badges.

GTB

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

Andy, they are both photographed! See also K&K Vol. 1 p. 255-256 although K&K make no mention of the raised crown version.

Rgds, Thomas.

Thomas,
I believe this to be an error on the part of K&K? I strongly believe there were only the two patterns of ORs "ASC" Cap Stars, KK987 which then transitioned to KK990? Although the later having a considerable amount of die and makers variations. I've yet to see an ORs badge in the style of KK988! Three if you count the EI pattern too.

Andy