Inniskilling Dragoons

[Faugh-A-Ballagh]

I've had this one for many years, bought from a dealer in Smithfield Market in Belfast. Never been too sure about its authenticity. However, good metal and good patina, but no sweat holes. Anyone got any ideas about what clues I should be looking for on this one? I would consider hunting for a good one, but if this was deemed ok, I would be happy enough with it.

[Saddle tree maker]

It is the correct pattern, but apart from just brazing holes, I would want the turret windows to be voided out.
STM.

[jeanpit-frenchy]

i have too a no voided windows one ,but with loops
for me my badge is a resticke

[John Mulcahy]

F-A-B

in my opinion the badge you posted is a fake.

The 6D forage cap badge should generally have the following characteristics.

1) The central tower on fakes are taller having 2 full row of bricks (& 1 partial) above the window and below the battlements. The genuine has just 1 full row (& 1 partial).
2) The flag pole on the genuine article is smaller than the fake.
3) The door on the genuine article is wider than the fake.
4) The windows on the side towers should be voided
5) Sweat holes should be present (in my opinion)

There is some speculation (but no evidence that I know of) that the design/pattern that you have shown may have come form a post WW1 NCO's arm badge, originally struck in WM.

In addition Peter Seaman in "Arm Badges of the
British Cavalry Regiments" illustrates a WM badge with slider which he says was given to him by a former 6th Dragoon who served in India in the 20's and told him it was worn on the pagri. This design had the same central tower featured and solid windows as this type that you posted. It may also be that reproductions are being made with this die, or off of a die copied from it.

I shall dig out some photos to compare genuine and fake side by side in the next day or so.

John

[Saddle tree maker]

According to Lineker & Dine's book on arm badges, they say that (The Silver/white metal pattern) ... " It is also believed that this pattern was worn as a cap badge by the Inniskillings service sqn formed as the divisional cavalry of the (Ulster) division . . " This squadron was formed in November 1914.
They also point out some of the differences between this and the regular bi-metal cap badge, mentioned by John, above.
STM.

[Faugh-A-Ballagh]

Thanks very much for that. I knew I would get the right info here. A mine of information as ever. Another one to be condemned to the re-strike bin - another one to try and locate.

Cheers

John

[3748 Hussar]

Are these any good . What do you think !

[Saddle tree maker]

The badge on the right looks fine.
I'm not sure about the one on the left, as I am not sure what it is purporting to be.
Is it silver or white-metal ?
The silver and white-metal ones I am aware of are of a different pattern.
If silver, I suppose it could be a private purchase officer's badge, but that is pure guesswork.
Is there dirt at the back of the right hand turret's window, or hasn't it been voided properly ?
STM.

[3748 Hussar]

Rear of the second badge, this a badge surplus to my collection up for grabs PM for details. SOLD
3748 Hussar

[John Mulcahy]

Below is a genuine looped example on the left and a fake (with slider) on the right

This is a heavily copied & faked badge, however there are characteristic features that allows one to readily identify the fake bi-metal forage cap badges. To re-iterate my earlier post , consider the features below in reference to the images.

1) The central tower on the fake bi-metal is taller having 2 full row of bricks (& 1 partial) above the window and below the battlements. The genuine has just 1 full row (& 1 partial).
2) The flag pole on the genuine article is shorter than the fake.
3) The door on the genuine article is wider than the fake.
4) The windows on the side towers are open.
5) The genuine example should (in my opinion) show two rectangular sweat holes on the scroll

These points above are acknowledged as generally correct by most experienced collectors.

Additionally in "The Book of the 7th Service Battalion, The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, from Tipperary to Ypres" by G.A. Cooper Walker published 1920, there is a photo of a belt buckle made by the battalion in Aug 1917. It uses a 6th Dragoons cap badge as the centre piece of the buckle.

That photo (which is very clear) has all the frontal features described above that are common to genuine badges.

All windows and doors - voided
Only 1 full row of bricks above the central tower
Short flag pole etc.

Likewise for the postcards showing the collection of the badges in the Derby, Stirling in the early 1900's. They show the same central tower, flag and tower window features mentioned for the genuine badge above. This badge does however show an angular doorway.

Thus there is some good contempory supporting evidence that these are the correct features for at least this pattern badge (there may of course be variations)

John

[cybershot]

Hi
I agree with all John's points for identifying a genuine Inniskilling Dragoon badge. However I purchased a silver and gilt Inniskilling Dragoon Sweetheart Badge a while ago which was obviously commisioned by a officer to commemorate the regiments service in South Africa 1899-1902.The castle (which is not a collar badge) has a long flag pole, unvoided windows, and more than one row of bricks in the centre turret.

The badge was made by the Birmingham jeweller Fredrick Narborough and is hallmarked 1902.

I asume the jeweller must have been given an Inniskilling badge to copy the design for the sweetheart. So what badge was he given?. Was it the traditional badge with one row of bricks or was it the so called white metal "Arm Badge" with three rows and a tall flag.

Any suggestions??
Cybershot.

[Malcolm Davey]

Here are my 6th Inniskilling Dragoons Badges, the white metal and the two brass are poss arm badges, the bi metal is the cap badge.
All the windows are voided.

Malc

[John Mulcahy]

Cybershot

that is an interesting piece of information and a bit of a "curve ball", the chances of it being based on an arm badge with that hallmark date are low as the regiment wore their "usual' pattern arm badge at that time which is a very different design to the cap badge type. (scans below). It appears as if the use of the "cap badge type" design as an arm badge dates from during the war and after.

thanks for posting the info. I have no possible explanations I am afraid. The 1901 dress regulations show the officers badge with the same features as described for the so-called genuine badges in the earlier posts.

John

[ard-ri]

Joachim,

Afraid a couple of your badges have a few bricks too many.

Michael

[3748 Hussar]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

Cybershot

that is an interesting piece of information and a bit of a "curve ball", the chances of it being based on an arm badge with that hallmark date are low as the regiment wore their "usual' pattern arm badge at that time which is a very different design to the cap badge type. (scans below). It appears as if the use of the "cap badge type" design as an arm badge dates from during the war and after.

thanks for posting the info. I have no possible explanations I am afraid. The 1901 dress regulations show the officers badge with the same features as described for the so-called genuine badges in the earlier posts.

John

Hi John

Left one is def a NCO armbadge 2nd not sure! strandge turret !

3748 Hussar