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  #31  
Old 20-07-13, 07:11 AM
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I thought that I should add this badge here to try and complete the SA Scottish badges. This is the pipers sporran badge. If you find an example like this in silver, be very careful, it is likely a fake. Somebody had some made up in the UK some many years back. Regards Andrew
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  #32  
Old 20-07-13, 09:16 AM
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Very nice Andrew, I'm sure there cant be too many of these around?

regards, Iain
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  #33  
Old 20-07-13, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iaindh View Post
Very nice Andrew, I'm sure there cant be too many of these around?

regards, Iain
Hi Iain, rumour has it, less than 10. Officially there is only 1 in the Tvl. Scottish Museum. The rest were destroyed when the baggage train was hit by a shell in France. In the 1960's a few were discovered at the manufacturer in Edinburgh that had never been issued. All told there appears to be about 6 or 7 in circulation. They have been faked in silver. The originals are in white metal. Regards Andrew
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  #34  
Old 20-07-13, 12:01 PM
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Wow,

the Americans would say "that's very unique" but lets rather say, almost unique!

I guess I'll never get to have one of those

regards,

Iain
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  #35  
Old 20-07-13, 02:40 PM
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Well Iain, you never know. I only picked mine up about 2 or 3 years ago. I was very chuffed. Regards Andrew
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  #36  
Old 20-07-13, 02:41 PM
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Hi all,

I have these two WWI SA Brigade titles which have the "INF" cut out of the middle and also finished nicely as though it was done with a purpose.
They are done in different styles so not a pair.
My own thought was that it may have been to put the regiment number in there but seeing Frank's number 4 which is 20 + mm and it would only allow 15mm max.

Any ideas anyone?

SA titles.jpg

Thanks Iain
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  #37  
Old 20-07-13, 02:44 PM
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I'm sure you were very chuffed Andrew, one of those little triumphs of badge collecting that makes everything worthwhile.

regards, Iain

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Well Iain, you never know. I only picked mine up about 2 or 3 years ago. I was very chuffed. Regards Andrew
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  #38  
Old 20-07-13, 04:47 PM
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Hello Dudley,
I very much like the little divisional thistles, they are not very common and I should imagine owe their survival to the fact, that unlike, other Great War divisional badges, they are actually made of metal rather than all cloth.
Delville has always been a very special place for me, many members of service battalions of my own local county regt lost their lifes there too, but, it was the 1st SA Infantry Brigade that stands out in my mind when you actually start looking at the numbers that the enemy put into the field against them.
The South Africans were just superb, I very much admire the Transvaaler's of the 3rd Regt in particular, their courage was magnificent on the 19th of July and after, for sometime, they did, in effect, cease to exist as a proper unit, but, Iain likes the 4th Regt, so for now, I'll stick with them!
With regard to medals, I am, first and foremost, a medal collector, so I do like medals, Delville casualties are a firm favourite, this was the last one I bought.
Hubert Cunningham Hutton was born in Killmarnock Scotland in 1887, in 1915 he was a bank clerk in Johannesburg, he joined up on the 18th of August at the Drill Hall in Johannesburg and accepted provisional enrolment for service overseas in an Imperial Service Unit, he swore his oath to King George two days later in Potchefstoom.
He was posted to the 4th South African Infantry Regt, he was sent to England and at the end of March 1916 was posted to France.
He was wounded on the first day, the evening of the 14th of July 1916, in the right thigh, after a month in Eastborne Military Hospital, he was invalided back to the union and ended up at Wynberg General Hospital.
He was discharged on the 8th of January 1917 and died on the 3rd of September following in Johannesburg.

When I checked his file at SADF Petoria I was moved by a newspaper cutting attached to the opening page:
A Springbok's Death
Late 1026 Pte Hubert Cunningham Hutton.
He went with the first contingent having joined the South African Scottish.
He was seroiusly wounded in the Delville Wood Battle, 14th July 1916.
The remains of the late Pte Hutton who died September 3rd in Johannesburg, as stated on Monday, were interred at the New Cemetery, Brixton, yesterday, with military honours.
There was a good attendance of friends and sympathisers, a firing party and bugulars being provided by the cadets of St John's College.
The Rev. J. D. Buchan conducted the service at the grave side.
Wreaths were sent by the manager and staff of the African Banking Corporation.

On yet another anniverary of this terrible battle, I salute a brave man, RIP sir!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madziro View Post
Hullo Frank

The two medal groups were given to me as is. I do collect medals in general but am not a fundi on them. While still serving in the army I had free access to the SANDF archives and got these blokes records photocopied!

In a separate post by Jibba Jabba concerning a thistle badge - the Thistle badge is the Div sign for the 9th Scottish Div. The SA Bde was under command of the 9th Scottish Div at Delville Wood. It was worn in metal (as in ebay photo) on circular blue melton cloth on the upper shoulder as per other Div signs.

Regards

Dudley

Last edited by Frank Kelley; 20-07-13 at 05:46 PM.
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  #39  
Old 20-07-13, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Hello Dudley,
I very much like the little divisional thistles, they are not very common and I should imagine owe their survival to the fact, that unlike, other Great War divisional badges, they are actually made of metal rather than all cloth.
Delville has always been a very special place for me, many members of service battalions of my own local county regt lost their lifes there too, but, it was the 1st SA Infantry Brigade that stands out in my mind when you actually start looking at the numbers that the enemy put into the field against them.
The South Africans were just superb, I very much admire the Transvaaler's of the 3rd Regt in particular, their courage was magnificent on the 19th of July and after, for sometime, they did, in effect, cease to exist as a proper unit, but, Iain likes the 4th Regt, so for now, I'll stick with them!
With regard to medals, I am, first and foremost, a medal collector, so I do like medals, Delville casualties are a firm favourite, this was the last one I bought.
Hubert Coningham Hutton was born in Killmarnock Scotland in 1887, in 1915 he was a bank clerk in Johannesburg, he joined up on the 18th of August at the Drill Hall in Johannesburg and accepted provisional enrolment for service overseas in an Imperial Service Unit, he swore his oath to King George two days later in Potchefstoom.
He was posted to the 4th South African Infantry Regt, he was sent to England and at the end of March 1916 was posted to France.
He was wounded on first day, the evening of the 14th of July 1916, in the right thigh, after a month in Eastborne Military Hospital, he was invalided back to the union and ended up at Wynberg General Hospital.
He was discharged on the 8th of January 1917 and died on the 3rd of September following in Johannesburg.

When I checked his file at SADF Petoria I was moved by a newspaper cutting attached to the opening page:
A Springbok's Death
Late 1026 Pte Hubert Cunningham Hutton.
He went with the first contingent having joing the South African Scottish.
He was sseroiusly wounded in the Delville Wood Battle, 14th July 1916.
Theremains of the late Pte Hutton who died September 3rd in Johannesburg, as stated on Monday, were interred at the New Cemetery, Brixton, yesterday, with military honours.
There was a good attendance of friends and sympathisers, a firing party and bugulars being provided by the catdets of St John's College.
The Rev. J. D. Buchan conducted the service at the grave side.
Wreaths were sent by the manager and staff of the African Banking Corporation.

On yet another anniverary of this terrible battle, I salute a brave man, RIP sir!
His medal group.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1020072.jpg (48.9 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg P1020073.jpg (42.7 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg P1020074.jpg (44.5 KB, 2 views)
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  #40  
Old 20-07-13, 05:14 PM
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Hello Steven,
With the Grigg made badges, I would have thought, okay yes, an officers badge, die cast and bronze, but, the problem I have, is that the very same badge was also made in brass, a true OSD is normally on blades, but, or course, there were other manufacturers that made officers badges on lugs.
I feel that with the amazing range of badges available for officers, silver, bronze and of course the superb fine murcurial fire gilt, why would you want a brass one, I would not!
So my own thoughts are that the brass are for other ranks and the bronze were intended for officers, but, I just don't know for sure, both the SA Hospital and Brigade Depot were in Richmond.
Kind regards Frank
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milmed View Post
Hi all,
Just thought I would add some thought I have on the expeditionary force badges based on photographiv evidence.

1. Universal springbok badge:
Yes these basically came in two sizes. It appears from photographs of the early days of the force in training at Twezeldown Camp(near Aldershot) that the first issue of these all appear to be the large badge. Subsequent pictures of the force in France, shows a mix of badge sizes. So the smaller badge may have been subsequent issues for replenishment troops, and maybe a cost cutting to save on brass. An alternative is that the smaller badge may have been private purchase.

Of course officers badges are mostly private purchase and here you find more officers with smaller badges and of various finishes. In my opinion the Grigg badge is an officers badge. I have two of these found locally in Cape Town recently, though the second identical to the first does not have the Grigg hallmark.

2. The South Africa / INF / Zuid Africa appears to be the standard Infantry shoulder title. I have seen pictures of all 4 battalions wearing this title with the number worn above it. This was again in my opinion the standard issue item. All other shoulder titles, I believe are private purchase.

I have a nice bronzed version of this standard title with Tiptaft, Bham hallmark. This is the only one I have seen with a hallmark.

3. The SA Scottish titles with thistle and springbok I have never seen worn in any period photograph. I believe these are private purchase but whether for a group of officers or maybe for pipers, I cannot say.

Regards
Steven
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File Type: jpg P1020075.jpg (54.6 KB, 5 views)

Last edited by Frank Kelley; 20-07-13 at 05:49 PM.
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  #41  
Old 20-07-13, 06:11 PM
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Iain,
If I saw those, I would have just bought them without any thought at all, it is hard to know why the "infantry" has been removed, perhaps for a South African, who was not/no longer serving with the infantry but still wanted to be seen as a South African, again, it is hard to know!
Kind regards Frank

Quote:
Originally Posted by iaindh View Post
Hi all,

I have these two WWI SA Brigade titles which have the "INF" cut out of the middle and also finished nicely as though it was done with a purpose.
They are done in different styles so not a pair.
My own thought was that it may have been to put the regiment number in there but seeing Frank's number 4 which is 20 + mm and it would only allow 15mm max.

Any ideas anyone?

Attachment 86637

Thanks Iain
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  #42  
Old 20-07-13, 07:52 PM
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Hi Frank,

that is a possibility, I also have a "bok in the porthole" badge with an artillery backing flash; maybe this was the logic behind it???

SA Arty 011.jpg

kind regards, Iain


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Iain,
If I saw those, I would have just bought them without any thought at all, it is hard to know why the "infantry" has been removed, perhaps for a South African, who was not/no longer serving with the infantry but still wanted to be seen as a South African, again, it is hard to know!
Kind regards Frank
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  #43  
Old 20-07-13, 08:11 PM
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You are up late tonight Iain! what sort of night temperature do you have down there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iaindh View Post
Hi Frank,

that is a possibility, I also have a "bok in the porthole" badge with an artillery backing flash; maybe this was the logic behind it???

Attachment 86686

kind regards, Iain

Last edited by Frank Kelley; 20-07-13 at 08:18 PM.
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  #44  
Old 21-07-13, 03:21 AM
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Was up late Frank, it was Saturday! During the week we get up at 5h00 but I'm often awake at 04h00 but we also crash early.

Yesterday we had a low of 6 and a max of 20 C; it is still officially winter here but I say that by the 2nd week of August the worst of the winter is over as the sun is getting strong again, warming the land and killing any cold fronts!

Well you asked!

regards, Iain

Quote:
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You are up late tonight Iain! what sort of night temperature do you have down there?
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  #45  
Old 21-07-13, 07:44 AM
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LOL Iain,
So is that what you guys down there call these then, a bok in the porthole?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iaindh View Post
Hi Frank,

that is a possibility, I also have a "bok in the porthole" badge with an artillery backing flash; maybe this was the logic behind it???

Attachment 86686

kind regards, Iain
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