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  #16  
Old 18-10-14, 11:45 AM
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Using Ken's book, Into the Maelstrom, the images on page 96 show authentic brass Cdn Para badges. Note that the flaws in the clouds at the base of the shroud lines are visible, but there is no apparent damage as extensive as that shown in the feather tips as in the badge imaged by Oliver. The same is true of the reverse of the examples. The texture appears to be part of the striking to my eyes, and not the effect of a wash. In addition to using the images in Ken's book, I compared Oliver's badge to my examples. This was the basis of my skepticism.
Ken's narrative indicates that only two manufacturers are on record as contracted to make the badge. That was Breadner and Roden Bros. No other contracts were let. Bill, sub-contracting is a possibility, but to whom? Canadian production facilitites were near or at capactiy and there were not numerous firms available to take on the work. The number of Canadian firms capable of making badges can likely be counted on less than ten fingers.
On a different tangent, I am not sure why such a cachet is attached to the brass Cdn Para Corps badges. It was also noted that the brass badges were not likely issued until the end of hostilities. (One story relates that the brass badges were literally thrown out to the battalion at one of their last parades in the UK.) 1 Cdn Para Battalion was the first unit to be repatriated to Canada and most personnel were back in Canada by mid June 1945. Why mention this? If one wants a badge representative of the one worn by the unit when operational, it is the plastic variety that should be in the collection.
With the plethora of reproductions out on the market, I would pass on this example and wait to get an example that I am sure is copasetic.
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  #17  
Old 18-10-14, 03:05 PM
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Hello Bill,
I've always believed that the badges were first issued in 1943, after the original volunteers that made up the battalion arrived back in Canada.
As the badges were made in Canada, they would have to be have been sent out to Great Britain and so by spring 1944 a replacement was needed because of the shortage of both rankers and officers badges, as a result, the plastic badge then came into being.
Kind regards Frank
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  #18  
Old 18-10-14, 04:24 PM
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No, it is the other way around. The plastic badges were an economy measure issued in 1943. The plastic badges were made and issued in Canada. (I am not sure about your comment about arriving back in Canada? Is this a reference to the 1 Cdn Para training in the US?) There were no other badges available at this time except the officers' pattern. The brass badges were issued starting in late 1944 to reinforcements in Shilo and by this time 1 Cdn Para Bn had been overseas for about a year. The unit found the plastic badges wanting, both in appearance, but more from the point of durability. The lugs and pins broke off easily and the badges did not show up on the beret. Despite the complaints, production and shipping issues precluded the general issue of brass badges until the end of the war. Only the odd fellow who was a replacement may have had the brass badge.
(As a footnote, NDHQ had toyed with the idea of a steel badge, but production difficulties associated with steel being stamped in steel dies precluded this.)
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  #19  
Old 19-10-14, 08:13 AM
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Hello Bill,
I'm more than a little surprised by your post, I assume this has been proven and is well documented with regards to the badges.
My comment on arriving back in Canada refers to the original volunteers who were trained at Fort Benning in Georgia and those trained in Great Britain at RAF Ringway, though, of course this latter also ended up in Georgia before returning to Canada
Kind regards Frank

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No, it is the other way around. The plastic badges were an economy measure issued in 1943. The plastic badges were made and issued in Canada. (I am not sure about your comment about arriving back in Canada? Is this a reference to the 1 Cdn Para training in the US?) There were no other badges available at this time except the officers' pattern. The brass badges were issued starting in late 1944 to reinforcements in Shilo and by this time 1 Cdn Para Bn had been overseas for about a year. The unit found the plastic badges wanting, both in appearance, but more from the point of durability. The lugs and pins broke off easily and the badges did not show up on the beret. Despite the complaints, production and shipping issues precluded the general issue of brass badges until the end of the war. Only the odd fellow who was a replacement may have had the brass badge.
(As a footnote, NDHQ had toyed with the idea of a steel badge, but production difficulties associated with steel being stamped in steel dies precluded this.)
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  #20  
Old 19-10-14, 11:39 AM
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Default 1 Can Para Badges

Frank:

Do you own a copy of Into the Maelstrom, the story is fully documented there.

ED
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  #21  
Old 19-10-14, 11:58 AM
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Frank, I am surprised that there is still so much mis-understanding about the Cdn Parachute Corps badges around. Ken Joyce's Into the Maelstrom Service Publications, now the standard reference has been available since 2007. (Lou Grimshaw's booklet was a good start but Lou did not have access to the archive material that Ken Joyce accessed in both the UK and Canada.) The evolution of both the other ranks and officers badges are detailed, including the historical context, authorizations, production and distribution issues. Additionally images of archive documents and actual badges illustrate this chapter. If one collects Canadian airborne insignia, this is the key reference.
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  #22  
Old 19-10-14, 12:11 PM
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Hello Bill,
No, I have neither book, I must get hold of copies of them, thank you very much indeed for the link, I am still a little surprised though, I wonder what they made of the plastic badge when they first saw it.
Again, kind regards Frank

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Frank, I am surprised that there is still so much mis-understanding about the Cdn Parachute Corps badges around. Ken Joyce's Into the Maelstrom Service Publications, now the standard reference has been available since 2007. (Lou Grimshaw's booklet was a good start but Lou did not have access to the archive material that Ken Joyce accessed in both the UK and Canada.) The evolution of both the other ranks and officers badges are detailed, including the historical context, authorizations, production and distribution issues. Additionally images of archive documents and actual badges illustrate this chapter. If one collects Canadian airborne insignia, this is the key reference.
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  #23  
Old 19-10-14, 01:15 PM
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Hi Frank, There are observations about the plastic badges from the battalion in the badge chapter of Joyce's book. Before I would spend a dollar on any Canadian Parachute Corps insignia I would want to read and absorb the information in his book.
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  #24  
Old 19-10-14, 08:14 PM
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Whether the troops liked or disliked the plastic badge initially there is anecdotal evidence that they preferred them to the brass badges which came later as it identified them as 'old timers' and not replacement troops.
Clive
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  #25  
Old 20-10-14, 12:25 AM
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Going back to 12115's original post, my first question is how much does the badge weigh?
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  #26  
Old 20-10-14, 12:54 AM
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WJ Miller made a comment about "recent G-max fakes" and I just wanted to make it clear that G-max has not made any cap badges for over 10 years and they are not the badges with the dents and marks on the canopy. Gmax copies will not fool anyone as they were made with very thin brass and were artificially antiqued with a chemical browning.

The badge in the original post is very convincing and looks original in almost every respect save for the damage to the wing. My initial feeling was that it's a good badge but considering the amount of discussion it has created I'm no longer confident in my assessment.
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  #27  
Old 20-10-14, 01:09 AM
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Infanteer, my apologizes for the mix-up regarding my incorrect derisiveness of the G-Max badges (and for giving them too much credit ) However, regardless of the fact that they were made over 10 years ago, they can still be found being traded, with and without the maker tablets on eBay and muddying the 'collector' waters.
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  #28  
Old 20-10-14, 01:36 AM
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Default Plastic or Brass

The Plastic or The Brass: Which came first??

For all the Doubting Thomas' that may still be out there, I happened to be at the Public Library yesterday and saw the compiled War Diaries of the 1CPB on the shelf. (compiled and edited by Walter Romanow, Bunker to Bunker Books, 2006. ISBN 13: 9781894255653)

Excerpt from the 10 January 1945 War Diary of the 1 Cdn Para Trg Coy. (England)

“One interesting point about the dress and equipment of the most recent reinforcements which may have come from Shilo is the type of cap badge being worn by the Ors. Designed similarly to the plastic atrocity embellishing our lad’s berets, the new Cdn one is brass and has excited considerable comment (favourable) in camp. Looks like the old story of dressing up the ‘Zombies” and letting the active guys go without. Actually, such a bitter attitude is not taken, but the more practical action of an immediate request for a suitable supply for all ranks was effected.”
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  #29  
Old 20-10-14, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill A View Post
Ken's narrative indicates that only two manufacturers are on record as contracted to make the badge. That was Breadner and Roden Bros. No other contracts were let. Bill, sub-contracting is a possibility, but to whom? Canadian production facilitites were near or at capactiy and there were not numerous firms available to take on the work. The number of Canadian firms capable of making badges can likely be counted on less than ten fingers.
Yes, Ken's book lists the two original contractors as Breadner and Roden. and exactly to your point regarding too few manufacturers and too much workload vs. sub-contracting; I think it would have been completely necessary to subcontract the work given the time constraint of the contract, which is what I was trying to illustrate with my Gaunt example in the earlier post. I cannot say with an certainty or authority that subcontractors were used, though I have seen others claim badges made Birks and McKenzie Clay based on the lugs used and those identifications seem widely accepted.

What I find most strange about this badge and this thread is that there are members of this forum that would seem to have the proper knowledge to ID this badge either way and are oddly silent...
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  #30  
Old 20-10-14, 02:34 AM
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Hello 121155,

Even though your cap badge is being assassinated in this thread and I do believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, it looks like a good one to me. I have no issues with it.

Cheers
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