4th/5th Seaforths

[jim a]

I picked this badge up from an ebay seller who also had listed the 1,2,and 3 feather varieties. as I couldn't afford them all I picked this one and got it. I'm just wondering if it is as good as I think it is. As always any comments welcomed... Jim

[jim a]

[Tinto]

Hi Jim,
I've never seen these officer's badges in the flesh but this one does not compare favourably with that illustrated in Cox's book. There wouldn't be many colonel's badges around for a start and the other types would be very rare. Is your badge silver?
Cheers, Tinto

[jim a]

Yes it's silver but is not hallmarked...

[Fatherofthree]

Hi Jim.

I know absolutely nothing in relation to this particular badge, but I would just like to offer this.

I think it was last year, a set of all 4 badges, i.e 1,2 3 and 4 feather patterns was offered on ebay. They looked marvellous.

I bid on them as it's something you see so rarely, if ever, and at the time I wondered how many were in existence, (how many Colonels can a Territorial Battalion have?)

With several bidders after them, they went for a very high price, (not to me unfortunately), what I do remember though is the quality of them all and in particular the quality of the definition.

The cat looked as a cat should and the feathers definition was superb.

I'm not saying that yours is a wrong 'un, or wish to be negative or disparaging, (but your cat's face looks more rodent like), but compared to those I saw, I would have my doubts.

However, as I say, I know absolutely nothing in relation to this item and I stand to be corrected.

Regards
Brian

[jim a]

Yes... this is a badge that I have no experience handling and it's one that is seldom seen so it's tough to find an example to compare it to. The cat does look a little mangy but I don't think you can confuse him with a rat. I like the wear on the badge and I've never really seen a set of silver lugs like these on a badge before. Also these 4 badges didn't come from a regular ebay seller but were put up by one of the established Seaforth collectors on the west coast of Canada so there was some degree of comfort in making the deal. From the wear and construction I have a feeling it's an earlier badge but am always interested in the forums views... Jim

[Ypres]

The only original example of this badge I have handled was that worn by Colonel Davidson who comanded the 1st/5th Battalion in France from 1915-1916. His badge was still mounted on his glengarry. The badge was probably made of silver, but I could not see any hall marks on it. The 4 feathers were all seperate from the badge, not attached. Each feather had a broach pin mounting on the back. The feathers were much longer than the ones on the above badge. What was interesting about them was that 3 of the feathers had the broach facing north to south, the 4th was pastened south to north. This probably was his final feather added when he was promoted to colonel.
It was a great badge which sadly I never managed to buy, however I did buy his Dress Doublet and waist belt clasp plus some postcards and the end of the sleaves off his service dress {why they were cut off I will never know!!}. I also bought what is usually termed a 'Sgt' badge ie, no feathers in white metal. This was one of the badges he wore in the trenches!
I think his Colonel's badge and Glengarry were bought by the National Army Museum
All the best,
Stewart

[Fatherofthree]

After reading Stewart's reply, I'd like to add that shortly after the badges I mentioned in my previous post had been sold, I mentioned them to a dealer.

He told me then that they probably weren't real because on promotion, a feather was made and actually added to the officer's existing badge.

I didn't mention this in my first post because I wasn't sure, but it is in part corroborated by Stewart.

Not to say though, that the badge, subject of this thread is not a good one.

Regards
Brian

[Ypres]

One final point, all the original 5th Bn Sgt and Officers badges I have seen and handled over the years have all had a broach pin fitting on them, so not unlike a clan badge. I have never seen one with lugs.
I was told that the badges were made locally in Sutherland and Caithness, so there can only have been a couple of makers. So yes there will be slight differences from badge to badge but I do not believe there are two different patterns.
Your badge at the start of the thread looks the same as the copy badges which came out about 10 years ago, they all followed the same format and you could buy them with 1 to 4 feathers or with non or the whole set!. I have seen the same badge for sale about 6 times in the last year. One was being sold as a Home Guard Colonel's badge, yet I have seen a photo of the HG Colonel at the Seaforth museum and he is wearing a badge with full length feathers, not these wee stumpy ones.
Also given that there have not been that many Colonels of the 5th Seaforth, there can't be that many badges out there.
To be honest if I were you I would send it back and ask for a refund, but that is just my opinion.

[Peter Brydon]

This picture is captioned a Lieutenant of the 5th Seaforths talking to the C.O. of the 7th Black Watch at a 51st H.D. sports meeting in France 1917.
P.B.

[jim a]

Well it looks like the deal I madge was not so good after all.... a set of copies from the whole set of 4 seems to be floating around... the seller indicated and also had for sale the full set of 4 from LT CAPT MAJOR and COLONEL... However as a gap filler it still is a pretty good example and I'll probably never stumble on a real example in my lifetime soooooo.... I think I'll bite the bullet and keep it.... thanks for the info.... Jim

[billy]

Hi Jim, here is a couple of pictures that may help, on the rear top is a loop for the rank feathers a solid badge! I believe it to be Silver but its not hallmarked I would just love to have a feather to complete this!! I also saw the E-bay items and they went for £480ish, if anyone has any feathers? feel free to P.M. me cheers billy

[Eddie Parks]

Without making any aspersions on the seller at all - you should be able to rely on a hallmarked item because the penalties for faking a hallmark are so severe that it cannot possible be worth faking one!

[Ypres]

Hello Billy,
I don't think the loop on your badge is for the feather to go through as the feather would be too wide to fit. However it is possible that the loop is for the attachment of a safety chain {sometimes also seen on London Scottish officer badges}.
The feathers are worn behind the badge with only a fairley short portion, about a third, sticking out the top.
It's a nice badge.
Stewart

[billy]

Good-mornig Ypres, I thought it may have been for a pin/slide to fit into, but a chain makes sense now to find the other half cheers for the info!