The Grenadier Guards Officer Field Cap Badge

[grenadierguardsman]

I will add, Malcolm has a cracking website also.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Yes I totally agree Andy that there should be much clearer attribution and an attempt to provide a reference when such a categoric statement is made, especially with the prices being charged. I would love to know if the Grenadier Guards Museum has made a proper study of the undress insignia worn by the regiment over the last 300 years. In my opinion it is not properly appreciated that in a sense the hobby that this website focuses most upon, the collection of ordinary regimental cap badges, owes its subject to the fact that when other infantry were wearing simple numbers on their forage caps, the Foot Guards began the practice of wearing a Regimental badge, without question based on that upon their cartridge pouch. Despite this little is known about those early badges beyond their shape.

[grenadierguardsman]

Ive seen most of the Guards Museum's collection now. Thanks to Gary Gibbs
Andy

[cbuehler]

If this badge is indeed not to the GG, could it possibly be Indian Army? I must say that I too have gotten some very good badges from this seller and would not hold it against him in the case of this being an error.

CB

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Ive seen most of the Guards Museum's collection now. Thanks to Gary Gibbs
Andy

It would be great if you could take and post some photos of the really early forage cap badges at the museum Andy (1838-1848). They are not shown in Kipling and King as you know. The GG are especially interesting because unlike the Coldstream and Scots their cap badges were not the same as those on the cartouche, where the garter had always been used instead (the GG original primary emblem).

P.S. there is a thread here that might interest you: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/...guards/?page=2

[Frank Kelley]

Well, if you have no idea, it might be worth asking the seller where his description actually comes from and exactly why he thinks it is a Grenadier Guards badge, it may be the case that he has no idea too!

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Ive no idea Frank. Toby, yes we know the a metal badge was worn early on. I believe it to be the same as the ones worn during the Crimea, although there was a worsted grenade at that time also. Toby what about the reverse metals ?
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Well, if you have no idea, it might be worth asking the seller where his description actually comes from and exactly why he thinks it is a Grenadier Guards badge, it may be the case that he has no idea too!

Frank as mentioned in post 1, he says they came with a lot of officers badges.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

If this badge is indeed not to the GG, could it possibly be Indian Army? I must say that I too have gotten some very good badges from this seller and would not hold it against him in the case of this being an error.

CB

I have mentioned he is a good dealer.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

It would be great if you could take and post some photos of the really early forage cap badges at the museum Andy (1838-1848). They are not shown in Kipling and King as you know. The GG are especially interesting because unlike the Coldstream and Scots their cap badges were not the same as those on the cartouche, where the garter had always been used instead (the GG original primary emblem).

P.S. there is a thread here that might interest you: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/...guards/?page=2

Toby
The museum doesn't have anything that we haven't all ready seen. Theres only what we can find elsewhere.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Badges of the Grenadier Guards.
Materials
Bullion
Bronze
Gilding metal
Brass ( very early ones )
Worsted ( as seen on an Albert Cap )
Badges
Royal Cypher ( worn on the Foreign Service Hat )
Officers Bullion
Officers Bronze OSD ( gilding metal grenade was also worn on the Foreign Service Hat )
Senior NCO's Gilding metal white metal cypher
NCO's Gilding metal
OR's Gilding metal

No white metal with gilding metal cypher ? No evidence as yet.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

It’s interesting to see the list Andy, but as you say we have no images of the earlier (pre-Crimean war) forage cap badges and that is a large hole, especially given that the then three regiments of Foot Guards were wearing metal forage cap badges since well before they were eventually adopted by the infantry of the Line. There is more to discover and learn methinks. I strongly suspect that in the case of the Coldstream and Scots Fusilier Guards (as was) many badges listed as for cartouche were also used for forage cap (contemporary primary source paintings that I have drawn to your attention refer). As regards the Grenadiers, I earnestly believe that in the early years and for reasons of public expenditure and sheer pragmatism the rank and file of the regiment merely wore the then standard grenade used alongside numbers by grenadier flank companies of the line (interestingly I recently learned that the numbers were ‘added’ to grenades after the numbering system was introduced, implying that the ‘plain’ brass grenade badges may be older than we thought).

[Bill]

A badge like this is in KK Vol 1 (889) and also a GRV version is mentioned. One was sold by Bosleys some years ago. I don't think the Guards Museum has any examples.
Bill

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by Bill

A badge like this is in KK Vol 1 (889) and also a GRV version is mentioned. One was sold by Bosleys some years ago. I don't think the Guards Museum has any examples.
Bill

This thread highlights all the reasons why its not that badge.

regards

[Colin S]

Could the badge that started the thread be Grenadier Guards of Canada? Just a guess, as I know nothing about smart regiments!

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

It’s interesting to see the list Andy, but as you say we have no images of the earlier (pre-Crimean war) forage cap badges and that is a large hole, especially given that the then three regiments of Foot Guards were wearing metal forage cap badges since well before they were eventually adopted by the infantry of the Line. There is more to discover and learn methinks. I strongly suspect that in the case of the Coldstream and Scots Fusilier Guards (as was) many badges listed as for cartouche were also used for forage cap (contemporary primary source paintings that I have drawn to your attention refer). As regards the Grenadiers, I earnestly believe that in the early years and for reasons of public expenditure and sheer pragmatism the rank and file of the regiment merely wore the then standard grenade used alongside numbers by grenadier flank companies of the line (interestingly I recently learned that the numbers were ‘added’ to grenades after the numbering system was introduced, implying that the ‘plain’ brass grenade badges may be older than we thought).

Toby
We know the grenade hasn't really changed much since the Crimean War ( Photographic evidence ) 165 years. Why would it have changed 20 odd years previous ? I know there is no evidence of this. That badge is in reversed metals, not used by the Grenadier Guards.
Andy