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  #1  
Old 27-01-08, 11:57 PM
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Default Stormount Dundas and Glengarry Scotish Officers Badges oh and My Rant

Wow, so many of us Canadian Collectors are posting some SWEET stuff So, I thought I' would as well. I'm very happy with the badges but the price I paid for them was astronomical and really heralds the eventual end to my collecting as the prices for what I collect are so so high, I can't see how I can afford to collect in the future. I am now on my soapbox

F
On that happy thought,

Cheers,

Greg
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File Type: jpg SDG2.jpg (88.2 KB, 94 views)

Last edited by GregN; 31-05-11 at 08:09 PM.
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  #2  
Old 28-01-08, 04:54 AM
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Default and another

Here's another second pattern silver badge, this one by Scully. The vertical broach pin appears to be original.
Any idea who the maker of the flat back badge was? It seems to have a logo - a chess knight or something?
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  #3  
Old 28-01-08, 05:38 AM
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Fantastic badge Doug. Tha maker is W. Scully, of Montreal. It is also marked .900 sterling! VERY nice.

Greg
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  #4  
Old 28-01-08, 07:31 AM
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Hi Greg,
Yes, the struck up badge is by Scully. I was curious about the maker of the flat backed badge in your posting.
Here's why I'm asking: I also have a badge identical to yours - flat back, & marked STERLING with a tiny horse head logo. I had one fairly knowledgable fellow tell me that it may be a bad badge, made circa 1980 by an Ontario forger. I'd hope he was wrong, but I don't know for sure.

Doug
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  #5  
Old 29-01-08, 03:10 PM
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Smile bgpipes

Hi Doug N.........Could you please scan the obverse of your SDG badge with the broach pin attachment, thanx.
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  #6  
Old 29-01-08, 11:43 PM
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Here it is
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  #7  
Old 30-01-08, 09:46 PM
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Hi Doug, it wouldn't surprise me if these badges were being reprod - no rant, I promise I believe Scully is still in business, although they may contract out thier badge making to someone else (if anyone knows, let US know as well). If this the case then I'm sure they would like to know thier products are being counterfited.

Re the badge in question, I guess the real test would be to test it for silver content, if it is SS all the way though and marked so then it is probably a good one. We could also compare the size and weights of our badges and see it they are fairly close in size and weight.

Greg
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  #8  
Old 30-01-08, 10:19 PM
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Greg, Interesting question here. Is making an obsolete non-used cap badge counterfeiting? Who owns the likeness or design of a badge that is no longer in use? In most cases I thought the regiment or the government owned the design, and contracted to companies to have the badge made? So, is it the SD & G Highrs who should be concerned? And if so, what could they do about a badge that is no longer the approved pattern? Obviously the use of the Scully mark would not be legal on a current badge, but what is the legality of the use of a maker mark on an obsolete badge?
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  #9  
Old 30-01-08, 10:44 PM
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Smile Badges, genuine or repro

The future of collecting for serious people lies in communication on web sites such as this one. Yes, there have been more LRDG cap badges for sale on web auction sites than ever there were men in the unit. No, they did not have five badges each and decide to sell them all after the millenium. . . !
So pool your knowledge and pass it on to others, because we are only curators of history.
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  #10  
Old 01-02-08, 02:29 AM
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Hi Bill, as to whom owns the dies to a badge is an interesting one, If we look at the UK experience, the manufacturer did. When Gaunt went boobs up the dies where sold to the highest bidder. A quick look in the UK sections and you see the devastation of a hobby by greed.

With my Dad's old regiment, the "official" dies to the current regimental pattern are owned by the Queen and lent out to the manufacturer. The regiment has several distict patterns of badges though, at least one pattern die set is the property of the Regiment. So I know of 2 different patterns. I can ask him if there are others.

Greg
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  #11  
Old 01-02-08, 06:39 AM
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Default re Who owns the dies

My understanding in talking with William Sculley a while ago is that, in Canada, die masters were owned by the then Department of Militia (now DND). When a badge was ordered, the DM signed out the masters to the manufacturer, who made stamping dies from them. Masters were then returned to the DM.

Most Cdn. badge variants (Canadian Scottish, Mazeas M77, being a good example) will show the exact same tool marks and flaws whether the badge was made by Sculley or Birks or an unknown maker; whether in 1928, 1940 or 1952; and whether stamped, cast, punched or bored. I have several CanScots ranging from old, cast Sculley versions to flimsy stampings that probably date from the 1950s and they all have identical tool markings regardless.

[As an aside, in some cases there are true variants that aren't, to my knowledge, noted anywhere, whereas most other variants are different manufacturers stamping from the same source dies in most cases. According to Sculley, his company often sub-contracted badge runs in WWII when capacity was overloaded, so even Birks marked badges were in a lot of cases Sculley contracts.

My personal favourite unrecognized variant is the lowly Les Voltigeurs de Quebec (lowly only in the sense of the badge's commonality). It has a non-Sculley pattern with totally different basket-weaving in the Maltese cross arms, hence came from a totally different die than the Sculley pattern. Another is the Westminster Regiment sunset badge, which also has two distinct KC dies.]

As far as I am concerned, DND owns the designs. Theoretically, DND should still have the badge masters.

I say should because, on hearing a rumour that a couple of crates of masters had been found when clearing out an old air base in eastern Canada some years ago and forwarded to the CWM, I tried running this story to rest. I drew blanks from both the CWM and DND. As for the CWM, seems they really don't know what they have, so if they actually have old masters it will be a surprise to them and everyone else.

Sculley itself still has DM "sealed samples", which are the pattern God-books for acceptable manufacture, for almost everything they produced -- badges, lanyards, ribbons, etc.

When Gaunt went into receivership, in England its stamping dies were sold as scrap, but many ended up in private hands, hence the plethora of Canadian and other restrikes (can anyone say Soo Rifles, 19th Lincoln or CanScots "16th" badge?) originating there. In Canada, however, all Gaunt Montreal's stamping dies were acquired by Wm. Sculley Ltd.

As to 'copyright', if this applies to badges, that would probably punt the ownership of most designs into public domain. However, not to be too, too diplomatic here, what we are actually dealing with is not copyright, but fraud. Regardless of design ownership, ducking behind 'caveat emptor' while you crank off Soo Rifles or 1st APC Regiment type II badges from an old Gaunt die so you can purport them to be genuine WWI or WWII items and attempt to flog them at $200-$400 a pop is no longer a copyright issue.

Last edited by DavidS; 01-02-08 at 06:51 AM. Reason: reinserted a lost paragraph
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  #12  
Old 02-02-08, 06:53 AM
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Default a more sober opinion

I'd like to take this thread back a step & re-visit the 'goodness' or 'badness' of the flat backed SDG badge originally posted by Greg N. A casual opinion I'd been given, & repeated, is that this might be a cast replica.

I have an example of Greg's flat back badge, & also two Scully marked SDG badges. I've spent a couple of hours going over these with a jewellers loupe & a micrometer. Here's what I found:

The flat backed & Scully marked badges are products of the same die (more on this later) Most importantly, the flat back badge is not a cast replica, it is a die struck piece.

To cast a reproduction requires a mold taken from an original badge. Molten metal is poured or forced into the mold, & voila...repop. The process however, introduces shrinkage, & the repop will be slightly smaller than the original. There will be some shrinkage in the master to mold stage, & more again when the molten metal freezes in the mold. It wouldn't matter if the shrinkage was to the high or low side of range, some amount is inevitable & it can't hide from a micrometer. I can tell you to a certainty it's not there; the three badges are the same size within normal commercial tolerances.

The SDG badge has a lot of intricate detail. Closely examined, these details are as distinctive as a fingerprint. Comparing the flat back & Scully badges side by side, I would say the fingerprint is identical & that both are products of the same die.

Interestingly, there is one point of difference. At some juncture between the manufacture of the flat back & Scully marked badges, the die was modified in the areas at the inboard ends of the motto scrolls. I could only speculate as to why the die was 'massaged'. The nature of the re-work suggests that the flat back badge is from the 'as - built' die; the Scully badges are from the revised die. Please note that the mass produced wartime OR's badges are all from the revised die. I'd postulate that the flat back badges are very early examples of the SDG pattern, perhaps even 'first articles'.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that the flat badge is indeed authentic (& a beauty for sure)
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  #13  
Old 27-04-08, 12:58 PM
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Default Another "Flat Back" SD & G sterling badge

Another example of the "flat back" sterling silver officer's cap badge for the Stormont Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders.
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  #14  
Old 30-05-08, 06:29 PM
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Default SDG officer cap badge and collars made by Gaunt London

Hello,
Thanks for your very interresting posts that I read with the greatest attention.
I would like to bring my contribution with this set of SDG 2nd pattern officer cap badge and collar badges made by J.R.Gaunt London. Only the collar badges are stamped J.R.Gaunt London in very small lettres and they are matching with the cap badge metal and tone. I got them together and I would qualify them as "Service Dress" badges. I think they are original WW2 badges...
J-F
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  #15  
Old 02-06-08, 01:37 PM
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Default Officers' Cap Badges

As an example, I bought a Princess of Wales' Own Regiment officers' cap and collar badge set from the firm Kinnear d'Esterre Jewelers in Kingston.
This company (now out of business) had been manufacturing badges for the PWOR since before the Great War.
When I bought the badges, I was asked if I wanted the "frosted finish".
My point is that officers' badges were private purchase, and although we often see them made by Scully and Gaunt, many were simply made by local jewellers. This is why we so often see variations in officers badges.
Beware of hall marks, or at least be familiar with them.
I was told of a case in the UK where a dealer was selling hallmarked sterling silver badges of the Cameron Highlanders. The hallmarks were legitimate, but indicated recent manufacture.
Back to the PWOR badges...when Hugh Bondy made up the reproduction Canadian badges (I will print his name as he was very open about selling these badges as reproductions), one of the badges was the 14th PWOR capbadge. Since these were made using the lost wax casting method, all details, front and rear came out on the cast badge. In this case, the Kinnear d'Esterre mark was clearly seen on the rear of the badge.
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