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  #1  
Old 19-11-13, 06:15 PM
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Default 16/22 Sask. Horse 20CTR 2CATB Formation

Hello,

The images below were taken from a recent closed auction.

'Distinguishing Patches' confirms that they were no authorised combined unit-formation patches for the 2nd Canadian Army Tank Brigade.

And this is taken from the 'Canadian Soldiers' website:

Unlike the other Tank and Armoured Brigades, unit titles don't appear to have been combined with the formation patches.

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/orga...redbrigade.htm

Is this a fantasy piece or a previously unknown original?

Cheers,
François
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20CTR Formation 1a.jpg (92.3 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg 20CTR Formation 1d.jpg (87.9 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 20CTR Formation 1f.jpg (94.3 KB, 6 views)
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  #2  
Old 19-11-13, 07:31 PM
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Hello François. That grouping went for a considerable sum.
There were imposed formation patches for the first incarnation of the 2 CTB. As linked, the first order of battle included the 20 CTR, 23 CTR, and 26 CTR. The brigade was still in Canada when the Canadian Armoured Corps insignia policy was finalized. That policy stated that the CAC would wear a common shoulder title, CANADIAN/ARMOURED CORPS, and the formation patch with the appropriate regimental abbreviation imposed (embroidered or printed). This would allow the regiments to perpetuate their regimental identity and foster morale. With this consideration, embroidered patches for 2 CTB, to be acquired through Canadian makers were contracted in late 1942. With the inevitable delays in production, (due to the flood of contracts issued around that time, and a shortage of manufacturers and materials), very few patches had been acquired by the time the brigade embarked for overseas.
When the original 2 CTB arrived overseas, the regiments were exchanged with those of 3 CTB and that formation was disbanded. The original 3 CTB units now made up the new 2 CTB (soon to be CAB) order of battle. At the very same time, CMHQ was dealing with insignia issues overseas. The imposed patching had been a major pain for the Canadian army overseas and complicated the acquisition of insignia. For example, only a small number of Canadian Postal Corps patches would be needed for the armoured brigades. With the likelihood of personnel transfers, or in the event of another major re-organization, those existing patches would be obsolete. This had already happened to the 5 Canadian Armoured Division, where the First Hussars and Fort Garry Horse had imposed formation patches made, respectively 1H and FGH in green embroidery on maroon formation signs. Then they were moved to 3 CTB. With these issues in mind, CMHQ had reconsidered the entire scheme of patching, and by the time the "new" order of battle for the 2 CAB was set, the insignia policy had been changed to regimental shoulder titles with plain formation patches. The three units of 2 CAB, the First Hussars, Fort Garry Horse, and Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment never acquired imposed patches for that formation, but instead adopted shoulder titles and a plain 2 CAB patch.
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Last edited by Bill A; 19-11-13 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 19-11-13, 08:06 PM
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Hi Bill,

Many thanks for your reply, as always, a wealth of appreciated information.

Am I right then in understanding that there were indeed Canadian produced embroidered combined unit-formation patches for 20, 23 and 26 CTR and that the pictured example be one of those? They would only have been worn between procurement in late 1942 at best and disbandment in summer 1943?

Have you seen other examples of these? They are not pictured on the Canadian Soldiers site or mentioned in Distinguishing Patches.

Cheers,
François
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Old 19-11-13, 10:16 PM
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Hi François, Correct, the imposed formation patches for 20, 23, and 26 should be Canadian style. There is another complicating factor. In November 1942, the Senior Combatant Officer, Gen. A. McNaughton, received the recommendation that to simplify the various insignia supply issues the Canadian Army (Overseas) should adopt printed insignia. By early 1943, all new insignia for Canadian formations and units in the UK was to be made in the printed style. 2 CAB was supposed to have arrived with their insignia, and with the pending re-organization, no printed patches were made for the original order of battle of that formation. Of interest, both printed and embroidered patches were procured for the original 3 CTB, but again the re-organization meant that they were obsolete almost immediately. Very few examples of printed 3 CTB formation signs exist, but there are some. Any imposed patches to 2 or 3 CTB are scarce, but any 2 CAB that have 6, 10 or 27 CTR are phoney.
Attached images of some 2 CTB and 3 CTB imposed patches.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 6 ctr 3 catb canvas.jpg (48.0 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 10 ctr 3 catb canvas.jpg (46.1 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg 2nd cdn armd bde 20 ctr.jpg (43.2 KB, 13 views)
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Old 21-11-13, 03:17 AM
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Hi Bill,

Thanks for the information regarding this rare flashes.
Is the 6 CTR I posted correct? I believe it is.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0673.jpg (77.0 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0674.jpg (74.7 KB, 5 views)
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Old 21-11-13, 12:50 PM
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Hi Ron, Excellent example of the First Hussars patch for 3 CTB.
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Old 21-11-13, 01:15 PM
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Default 3 CTB CCS

Manufactured in Belfast and found there 40 years later (mid-1980s):
3 Can Armd Bde_CCS.jpg
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  #8  
Old 21-11-13, 07:02 PM
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Hi Bill,

Thanks. Valuable information on the Canadian made 2 CATB formation patches for the third edition of 'Distinguishing Patches' I think.

Below are scans of a sadly, and God only knows why, defaced 27CTR patch. The faint outline of the removed 27 can still be seen.

Are all embroidered 3 CATB patches UK made (thick embroidery) or are there Canadian made examples similar to the 20CTR pictured above (thin embroidery)?

Cheers,
François
Attached Images
File Type: jpg defaced 3CTR 1a.jpg (43.0 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg defaced 3CTR 1b.jpg (36.0 KB, 1 views)
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Old 21-11-13, 07:21 PM
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Hi Mike, Thanks for the image of the CCS 3 CTB.
Hi François, I saw that mangled 3 CTB patch as well. Didn't make sense to me either.
The 3 CTB patches should all be UK made.
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Old 21-11-13, 07:59 PM
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Hi Bill,

I haven't had a chance to research this grouping yet, but the seller mentioned that the Veteran served with 6CTR. There might be a link there to explain the removed 27 on the formation patch.

Cheers,
François
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  #11  
Old 21-11-13, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill A View Post
Hi Mike, Thanks for the image of the CCS 3 CTB.
Hi François, I saw that mangled 3 CTB patch as well. Didn't make sense to me either.
The 3 CTB patches should all be UK made.
1 Cdn Corps CCS came from the same source. Less rare but not listed by Charles Edwards. Mike
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