Airborne Helmet HSAT - unit identity "43/HQ" and "CCL" dating?

[JerryBB]

whatever the date appears to be, this maker did not make helmet liners until the 1950's at the earliest, I cannot stress too much, the date has been faked to make it look wartime but it is not. If you look carefully you might find a date on the shell itself.

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Quite frankly Jerry, 1956 is a nice date to have, I think that when looking to buy this sort of thing, you need text book examples that are beyond all possible doubt.
It is a shame to see these being messed around with in order to deceive.

Frank,

I have a 1944 liner in its original wartime shell, a 1956 liner in its original 1956 dated shell and also a wartime shell with a 1956 liner inserted into along with a 1955 dated chinstrap.

Obviously the first two untouched examples are the stars, but both have a long service history as the HSAT's were used into the 1980's with service on the Falklands and probably beyond.
Even my wartime example has post war reuse, but to me that does not lessen it in my eyes though I know many collectors would turn their noses up at such an example.

[DougSA]

Hi Jerry,

Can I ask where the dates are marked on your HSAT shells?

I also have a 1956 C.C.L. example, as shown in my other thread, it's shell is a little battered, and with an unknown marking on the front...

...and a 1944 B.M.B. example, with original green helmet net (see photos). Interestingly, this one has some folded newspaper inside the lining, presumably to make for a more snug fit for one of its users; i.e. Daily Graphic, dated 17 June 1948, with some headlines related to Berlin. This is my favourite one of the three!

(I should mention that the above two were not acquired from the same source as the one in this thread. If I recall correctly, the one in this thread came via the same dealer who sold me the dodgy Parachute Regt BD blouse, which I shared in a thread a few some months ago.)

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by DougSA

Hi Jerry,

Can I ask where the dates are marked on your HSAT shells?

I also have a 1956 C.C.L. example, as shown in my other thread, it's shell is a little battered, and with an unknown marking on the front...

...and a 1944 B.M.B. example, with original green helmet net (see photos). Interestingly, this one has some folded newspaper inside the lining, presumably to make for a more snug fit for one of its users; i.e. Daily Graphic, dated 17 June 1948, with some headlines related to Berlin. This is my favourite one of the three!

(I should mention that the above two were not acquired from the same source as the one in this thread. If I recall correctly, the one in this thread came via the same dealer who sold me the dodgy Parachute Regt BD blouse, which I shared in a thread a few some months ago.)

That looks great Doug, though I am pretty certain the net is a post war version.
As I said above, these helmets saw up to 40 or more years service and the long history makes them very interesting.
I'll look for your other example.

The shell marking is on the side at about the same height as the liner metal, usually only part of it is visible. Wartime shells are often unmarked. I'll add a pic in a minute from my laptop.

[JerryBB]

shell marking on the 1956 HSAT.

[DougSA]

Originally Posted by JBBOND

...The shell marking is on the side at about the same height as the liner metal, usually only part of it is visible. Wartime shells are often unmarked. I'll add a pic in a minute from my laptop.

Hi Jerry,

Thank you for sharing the pics.

I have re-checked all three of my helmets and cannot see any dates/markings stamped inside the shells.


D.

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Jerry,
These helmets had an awful long shelf life, getting hold of a mint wartime made example has never been an easy thing to do, despite the numbers produced, the "re-enactment" fraternity have made matters somewhat harder.
To be quite honest though, I would much rather have a good example that has seen use post war, as long as it is sound, better by far, than one that has been buggered around with by a bent dealer.
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by JBBOND

Frank,

I have a 1944 liner in its original wartime shell, a 1956 liner in its original 1956 dated shell and also a wartime shell with a 1956 liner inserted into along with a 1955 dated chinstrap.

Obviously the first two untouched examples are the stars, but both have a long service history as the HSAT's were used into the 1980's with service on the Falklands and probably beyond.
Even my wartime example has post war reuse, but to me that does not lessen it in my eyes though I know many collectors would turn their noses up at such an example.

[leigh kitchen]

I second that, unmessed is best.

[Frank Kelley]

Who is this "dealer" and I use that term loosely, certainly one that should be avoided I think.

Originally Posted by DougSA

(I should mention that the above two were not acquired from the same source as the one in this thread. If I recall correctly, the one in this thread came via the same dealer who sold me the dodgy Parachute Regt BD blouse, which I shared in a thread a few some months ago.)

[DougSA]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Who is this "dealer" and I use that term loosely, certainly one that should be avoided I think.

Needless to say, I would also agree that "unmessed is best"!

The dealings that I had with the dealer in question were way back in the 1980s. He was then operating as the welfare officer of a branch of the Parachute Regt & Airborne Forces Association, who was selling various items of Airborne militaria sourced from veterans, the depot and perhaps elsewhere; some of which were certainly genuine and "unmessed", but others which it has (since) become clear that he had "messed" with for the purposes of financial gain. On the plus side, I also managed to obtain some really nice "unmessed" items. Given his age at the time, I am not sure if he is still with us.

[Frank Kelley]

Well, in that case, hopefully no future collectors are going to be fleeced by this character.

[DougSA]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Well, in that case, hopefully no future collectors are going to be fleeced by this character.

Yes, that is the 'silver lining' of this story!

[ianh67military]

You could always as Ted Dalton, ex 10th (Volunteer) Battalion the Parachute Regiment, now the ex chairman of Chute and Dagger, the airborne and special forces collectors club, if he remembers wearing this helmet when he was a youngster. He was attached to HQ X Para for quite a while in the 80s, as a sergeant or colour sergeant. His picture is in one of the Osprey books. Ted put together the display of foreign para wings in the Airborne Forces Museum when it was based in Aldershot. Really useful for IDing wings worn over the right pocket of para smocks.
Ian Hq

[tcrown]

Originally Posted by DougSA

I should mention that I tested the helmet with a magnet, as I have read that wartime helmets were made of non-magnetic manganese steel.

Another way to authenticate a HSAT mark II is to look at the chin strap buckle attachment. WW2 chin straps have another layer of fabric applied to the turned over cut edge as in the attached photo top example (source Fisher & Lock)

[Frank Kelley]

Assuming that the particular example concerned has retained it's original chinstrap.

Originally Posted by tcrown

Another way to authenticate a HSAT mark II is to look at the chin strap buckle attachment. WW2 chin straps have another layer of fabric applied to the turned over cut edge as in the attached photo top example (source Fisher & Lock)