Pre-1890 Marksman Badges?

[RCN]

& a 1st class Marksman (star above muskets).....

[RCN]

Here is another example, but unable to get a closeup of it. I fI get it I will do that tho.

His rate badge is two star Seaman Torpedoman post 1903, so that approximately dates the Marksman badge.

Bryan

[Mike B]

Very interesting thread - and to think I had heard that "the only thing more dangerous than an Officer with a Map is a Matlot with a weapon"

[Guzzman]

Re the badge depicting a crown above crossed rifles (see image below). In the Victorian period this was the badge worn by Instructors of Musketry in both the Army and the RMLI. Although I have not found any official record of such a badge being issued in the Royal Navy, I have come across references to ratings being appointed as Instructors of Musketry at Whale Island (H.M.S. Excellent) in the 19th century. This would make sense as someone has to instruct personnel in the use of their weapons - and instruction in infantry tactics for the use of ratings forming Naval Brigades formed a prominent part of the training at Whale Island at the time. I have attached an image of such a badge (though minus slings and in gold wire) issued to the RMLI. This is only a suggestion but, after having already talked about this with Simon, I offer it up to the forum for consideration and discussion.

Pete

(Having re-read the above I hope it makes sense to everyone else! My only excuse is that it's late at night and I'm very tired!)

[RCN]

Hi Pete!

I understand what it is you are saying & I love the badge!

The addition of the Crown to the rate usually means the rating is an Instructor of some type - ie: a Senior man in his specialty capable of training other junior rates.

In the 1884 NL - Pay List, under- 'Payments In Addition to Wages' - is noted:

Gunnery Instructors (In addition to their Gunnery or Torpedo pay) -8d per day.

Rifle Instructors (Hythe) - 8d per day

& other specialties also, ie: Captain Of Turret, Captain of Gun etc.....

So what you mention was quite possible -- perhaps a naval Petty Officer might have worn the Musketry Instructor badge as worn by the RMLI.

Bryan

[Guzzman]

Hi Bryan

It's good to hear from you as always!

I'm glad that you agree that this is a possibility. I notice that the rating in the picture is wearing the rate badge of a 2nd Class Petty Officer so would be the perfect rate to be an instructor. The information I have comes from an old history of Whale Island (GIs idea of heaven!) and I will endeavour to find and quote the relevant section.

Re the subject of ratings wearing Marksman Badges pre-1890. Perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way round? Rather than wearing Marksman Badges pre-1890 is it not possible that at least some of the ratings are wearing correct post-1890 Marksman Badges with obsolete trade badges? I know that in the past in the RN, and probably in the RCN, there could be a number of reasons why a rating would continue to wear an apparently obsolete trade badge.

And the Instructor of Musketry badge is a beauty, isn't it?

Pete

[RCN]

Originally Posted by Guzzman

Hi Bryan

It's good to hear from you as always!

I'm glad that you agree that this is a possibility. I notice that the rating in the picture is wearing the rate badge of a 2nd Class Petty Officer so would be the perfect rate to be an instructor. The information I have comes from an old history of Whale Island (GIs idea of heaven!) and I will endeavour to find and quote the relevant section.

Re the subject of ratings wearing Marksman Badges pre-1890. Perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way round? Rather than wearing Marksman Badges pre-1890 is it not possible that at least some of the ratings are wearing correct post-1890 Marksman Badges with obsolete trade badges? I know that in the past in the RN, and probably in the RCN, there could be a number of reasons why a rating would continue to wear an apparently obsolete trade badge.

And the Instructor of Musketry badge is a beauty, isn't it?

Pete

Yes Pete, a PO2,PO1, CPO Gunnery rating would certainly have been an Instructor at one or more times during his career. They had to re-qualify regularly at Excellent, Defiance, & Vernon to maintain their additional Gunnery /Torpedo pay, & after their course might be kept on as Instructors. A lot of ratings passed thru these schools in the latter part of the Victorian period & into the pre Great War period & Instructors were always required. Sometimes on their Service Records it indicates GI, or TI (Gunnery or Torpedo Instructor) as they were paid extra for these qualifications. If a PO might be at Excellent for say a three or more month period (& he was rated as a GC(Gun Captain, or TC -Turret Captain), it is a safe bet to assume he is being held there as an Instructor. Many qualifying classes must have been going thru the schools at any time, especially in that 1901 to the pre 1WW, period, due to the naval arms race between UK & Germany, & the rapid advancements in gunnery at that time period.

Concerning the wearing of rate badges after the so called "stop year" - yes I would say that definitely occurred, especially with ratings near the end of their careers. A good example is the PO2 rank - it was abolished in 1913 yet continued right thru the first war period, with older recalled pensioners wearing the old rank insignia until they presumably qualified (IF they qualified) for the NS (new standard) PO rank.
All of the gunnery ratings were reclassed as SG (Seaman Gunners) & GL (Gun Layers) for the 1WW period, but I have seen period photos of ratings wearing the older pre 1903 ratings. Perhaps the rules in regards to wearing badges was not all that well enforced, & thus ratings not picked up for wearing out of date rates. I don't really know that tho - that's just an 'educated' guess on my part.

I do know when I came in in to Sea Cadets in 1959, the old pre 1950 rates had been abolished for 9 yrs then, but I do recall seeing older
RCN[R] PO's wearing the old crown & star rates that had been replaced in the RCN in 1949-50. Obviously in some cases they could get away with wearing the old rates, but I don't think that would have been tolerated in the RCN; but saying that, I have seen in the RCN magazine - "The Crowsnest", CPO & PO's wearing the old rates in post 1950 photos (unless the photos were taken quite a bit earlier in time, & that is of course a possibility).

So I don't think we can take the 'start' & 'stop' years for insignia noted in May as 100% accurate. However, I don't know exactly how he established these years of wear, perhaps someone might enlighten us on that??

In the July 1914 NL some of the old rates are still being shown in the Pay Lists of the RN, so they must have still been around well after they were supposedly abolished!

Don't know how much this discussion really helps but may give some insight into what can be a rather nebulous subject!

& to close -- yes, I do LOVE the RMLI Marksman badge & would like one -- if you spot one at a UK show pls grab it for me!

Thanks, Bryan

[Guzzman]

I suppose that all I have been trying to emphasise is that we mustn't take terminal dates for badges too literally - and that we mustn't be too surprised to see 'odd' combinations of badges in old photographs of naval personnel. I become far more excited at the sight of previously unrecorded badges being worn!

As May himself says: "In the following lists of dates at which particular badges were worn by ratings, a terminal date given is that when a badge ceased to be authorised. The badge might often continue to be worn for some years after this date until its owner had acquired a higher qualification or until the badge itself or the garment to which it was stitched was worn out. There were also cases where a man might retain an obsolete rating instead of converting to a new one, because of his imminent date of release from the service or from some other cause." (page 30, Badges and Insignia of the British Armed Services).

Another factor to consider is the size of the Victorian Royal Navy, the disposition of its ships and personnel around the globe, and problems caused by the existing technology and means of communication. Even today, with a much smaller Royal Navy, mainly based in the UK, and with all the advantages of modern communications and a modern transport infrastructure there can still be problems. It is not unusual for supplies of new designs of trade badges only to become available some time after their supposed date of introduction - requiring personnel to continue wearing technically 'obsolete' badges.

Pete

[RCN]

Makes sense Pete, ratings coming off a two or three yr overseas commission would certainly see some changes at Excellent, Defiance, & Vernon when they were drafted there for re-qualifiying & perhaps saw their current rate badge(s) had changed. Also, even when overseas, seeing new drafts arrive they might also see changes in their rate badges.

I don't think we can hold fast to the 'start' & 'stop' years of the various rates, but rather treat them as approximations.

Bryan

[Guzzman]

Today I came across something which adds a new perspective on the debate re the image of a rating wearing a badge depicting a Victorian Queen's Crown over Crossed Muskets (see below). I found the badge shown below which is described as being an Australian pre-Federation Marksman's badge awarded to the best shot in a battery or company. I hadn't considered the possibility that the rating shown in the picture might be serving in a colonial navy rather than the Royal Navy but I suppose it is a possibility - especially as many colonial naval forces were chiefly concerned with serving manning gun batteries ashore.

Pete

[Guzzman]

Please excuse my resurrecting an old topic but whilst undertaking some research at the National Maritime Museum I came across the following badge(s). It consists of a First Class Seaman Gunners badge above a Second Class Marksman's badge as shown in one of the photographs featured in this discussion. The only time I had previously seen this combination of badges was in the photograph. Unfortunately the NMM hadn't got any further information about the badge(s) but I thought that it might be of interest.

Pete

[RCN]

Thanks for posting Pete, nice badge & appears to have been worn but never seen the two joined in this fashion.

Bryan

[RCN]

Thanks for posting Pete, nice badge & appears to have been worn but never seen the two joined in this fashion..

Bryan

[nbroadarrowz]

Hi All,
Nice photos of early badges and uniforms.
No one has noted the watch stripes, in some of the photos, sewn at the junction of the sleeve and shoulder seam. To me these are great. They are mentioned in the 1889 and 1895 NZ Dress Regulations.
Barry