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  #1  
Old 10-02-20, 10:29 PM
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Default 1at American Squadron Cap Badge

Have another question, this time regarding the cap badge worn by the 1st American Squadron of the Home Guard. I see a lot of them offered with the standard American screw back bolt in the middle as this.



However, I am not able to determine the size of this badge from the picture or what is provided. If it is the standard size of the usual American army cap badge, then I suspect it is in reality a cap badge worn by a Tech Rep serving the US Army as an interface with the various war contractors. Additionally, I do not see how the standard sized cap badge could fit properly on a British side cap (I think you all refer to it as a FS cap) and also without poking the wearer's head.

I think the only proper cap badge worn by this unit would be a smaller version as depicted in this grouping of reenactor items. This look proper.



I am only making assumptions here, but to me this seems to be a true cap badge worn by this squadron, and although I can say what the size is, it seems more akin to a typical British cap badge.





Not trying to stir the pot here, just trying to understand what is correct. The tech rep badges can be found over here at prices far less than the UK, but I don't think they would be proper HG cap badges. I measured the standard eagle cap badge on my officers 15th AF crusher and it measures 2 3/8ths inches and 21/8th inches. When I am in a position to get one, I'd like it to be correct.

I appreciate any thoughts or feedback.

Terry
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  #2  
Old 10-02-20, 10:41 PM
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I am the owner of the above badge. Will measure it tomorrow and post the size.
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  #3  
Old 11-02-20, 11:38 AM
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I have a couple of these one with screwpost and large and a slightly smaller with lugs (can't remember how many) and this is thin as in bendable which I suspect isn't good.

O/K been up and checked location and here they are :-

Large :- Maker mark J.R. Gaunt, London
Thickness 1.50mm / 0.056"
Width 57.66mm / 2.270"
Height 52.21mm / 2.051"
Rear post depth 17.35mm / 0.690"

Small badge :- No makers mark.
Thickness 1.11mm / 0.038"
Width 50.67 / 1.997"
Height45.93mm / 1.820"
Two lugs to rear on wingsaligned to the Eagles neck!

Thickness on smaller badge is variable depends where taken (with Vernier), but you see what I mean it's thin and although not pliable wouldn't take much to bend out of shape if you intended too? But robust enough for what it is, the larger is Solid! with a Gaunt maker mark.

Hope this helps and Luke hope this helps you also, mine actually looks similar to your ownregard lug positioning, had a thought where these where at and too hand - no brainer, all the best billy
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  #4  
Old 11-02-20, 12:52 PM
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My badge with the use of a mark I ruler measures approximately 57mm wide x 50mm heigh.

As you can see from the picture it is smaller than a RA badge so size alone would not preclude wear in a forage cap.

The 2 looped badges pictured above (plus the one on the cap) with the disgruntled looking eagle and lacking voids between the scrolls are MM fakes. Number 809.

‘C’ is the badge Gaylor showed in edition 1 of his book. My Ludlow badge is an exact match.

‘2432’ is from KK Vol. 2. This badge is from a different die.

An example from yet another die is shown in this thread https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...can+home+guard . The badge is marked Gaunt, has loops rather than pins and the screw post removed. I like this badge.

Given this unit would not have been issued badges by the WO there is the potential for variation of both maker and fixings. As to what was worn I cannot say.

That said regarding Gaylor’s and Hugh King’s badges being 1stAS HG it could be one is correct, both are correct, or neither are correct examples to this unit.

I would be interested to see some examples of these Tech Rep badges?

Also what’s not to say that 1stAS HG would not have purchased ‘Tech Rep’ badges if a die fitting their requirements was already in existence at a manufacturers to save the time and expense of potentially commissioning a new one.

Last edited by Luke H; 11-02-20 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Typo
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  #5  
Old 11-02-20, 01:10 PM
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Hi Luke the smaller one off mine is a match for the M.M. copy but thought as much due to thickness, happy with the Larger one though, nice to see others and may have one of the smaller ones in the rest of American badges not sorted out as yet? Will check and post if I have but nit just yet getting ready to go to something called work!! All the best billy
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  #6  
Old 11-02-20, 02:29 PM
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Another Gaunt badge here: http://www.whartonmilitaria.co.uk/de...&item=BBTA0051 . The seller Wharton Militaria sells many fakes, forgeries and questionable badges. From the back I believe it is a cast copy. Plus you could drill for oil with the screw post!

And yet another here... https://www.relicmilitaria.com/produ...ron-cap-badge/
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  #7  
Old 11-02-20, 03:36 PM
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Gentlemen, thank you all. A lot of good information to digest.

Here are pictures a true Tech Rep cap badge. I do not own it so cannot give the dimensions (see 3rd picture).





From this picture that I found on line the tech rep badge does seem smaller. Perhaps the 1stASHG obtained those???



This link may also be of interest as to who the tech reps were.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra...Representative

This has been interesting and gives me the impression that determining a genuine 1ASHG cap badge is more than a little difficult.

Terry
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  #8  
Old 11-02-20, 04:24 PM
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Both of those Tech Rep badges are again different to all those shown above.

I can find no information on the Tech Reps or their badges on a google search and no pictures of this badge in wear. What is your source as I’d be interested to read up on the subject?

Another question to consider is how many Tech Reps were there? And how many of these as civilians (the card says) would have been based in the UK?

If as per the link they are involved in the supply chain and the award and monitoring of US government contracts between factories, suppliers etc. and the military then I wouldn’t have thought there would be many if any at all in the UK i.e. would British companies have needed to make their badges?

Attached is a very nice looking Packard badge I found on a web search.
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  #9  
Old 12-02-20, 04:29 AM
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Luke,

My source is from a book I had, but have since passed on titled "Silver Wings Pinks and Greens" about USAAF uniforms and insignia (and it's a good book). I recalled it when I ran across the badge doing some HG research, but as the Tech Rep badge. It was on a US militaria site and it got me wondering about the eagle won by the 1ASHG. I found it here. You have to scroll down quite a bit to find it, as there are no page numbers or any other way to get to it.

http://www.doughboymilitary.com/details.php?cid=7#10390

I did find this statement on another forum for collecting US insignia: " A proper example of the 1st American Squadron would be about 1/2 the size of a regular US Officer badge and have the traditional english pin and loop attachment" This makes sense to me, i.e. either having lugs or a slider. True they may have removed the central screw post to make them, but that is only speculation on my part.

I still do not see how a person could wear the eagle cap badge with the standard central screw post, which is what brought up my initial post to begin with. And I believe he eagle was smaller version than the standard size cap eagle.

Terry
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  #10  
Old 12-02-20, 12:43 PM
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I would be careful basing a belief on a post from another forum as there’s no way of knowing how accurate the posters information is. In your opening post you cited the smaller badge in the reenactors cap as looking ‘proper’. It isn’t and it’s undoubtedly fake which shows how gut feelings can lead us astray.

As you yourself pointed out you’ve made an assumption. In my experience it’s best to approach these things with an open mind and not looking for information as evidence that steers in the direction you want it to go.

There was a YouTube video posted on here some time back where a very misinformed individual made a guide video on how to spot original British cap badges (by the white stuff on the back apparently) which highlights how misleading forums and social media can potentially be.

I’ve not seen any photos of this unit wearing anything other than tin hats. Given this HG is rather famous there must be images or even a book somewhere? A period photo with the badges/caps being worn is 100% what’s needed as that then cannot be disputed. If the picture is clear enough it may even be possible to distinguish what die the badge(s) are from.

I partly agree the screw post is potentially, but not necessarily, an issue in my opinion. Also surely officers would have worn a peaked cap? For which a screw post wouldn’t be an issue at all. Therefore damming all badges with one would be unwise without evidence to the contrary. Also as you can see in the link to dak580’s badge in the other thread the screw post appears to have never been fitted and it was made with loops rather than pins. Two of the reasons I like it. However this again is the full size badge.

Like I said previously these are not WO ordered or produced badges so there is no sealed pattern or necessarily standard size, fixing, finish, construction method etc. Essentially one man could’ve ordered badges for the whole unit or each member popped into his favourite outfitters and ordered a badge - as I understand most were well-to-do.

My Ludlow badge has no signs of having the star field removed and I’m in no doubt it was made that way. I’ve also never seen another v’s the many Gaunt badges. But again that’s not to say that mine or necessarily any of the ones shown here are correct. This also feeds back into my question regarding the number of Tech Reps and number in the UK as to why and who British firms were making these star field-less badges for?

A period photo or badge with cast-iron provenance is needed to progress this one in any way I feel otherwise it’s all just speculation.

Last edited by Luke H; 12-02-20 at 01:19 PM. Reason: Typo
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  #11  
Old 12-02-20, 04:57 PM
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Luke, I absolutely agree with you regarding "speculation posts" from any source. I also totally agree a picture is worth a thousand words.

I've been searching for some photos that might be helpful and found one, a painting of Brg. General Hayes (organized the unit) that is interesting in that it shows the peaked cap as you mention, and the other, the only one I've ever seen of the ranks in the side cap. You can see the eagle badge and it looks to me to be worn pretty high up, maybe to allow for he screw post???





I will continue to keep looking as you never know what might turn up.

As for how many tech reps there wee and/or stationed in the UK I have no idea. If I find anything in that respect I will share it.

Terry
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  #12  
Old 12-02-20, 05:10 PM
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Yes I agree. Appears high enough up where a screw post wouldn’t be too inconvenient. Also looks a big badge to me! Good luck in your research.
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Old 12-02-20, 05:48 PM
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These badges are mentioned in Jon Mills & Terry Carneys book "In the space of a single day".

"The cap badge is believed to have been in brass for other ranks and bronze for Officers".

"One sauce records that a total of 128 men served in its ranks".

So genuine badges are probably pretty rare?

Rob
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  #14  
Old 12-02-20, 06:02 PM
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Thanks Luke, I agree the badge on the side cap does look normal size which would preclude the Tech Rep badge.

I am not sure I am going to be getting one of these anytime soon as Rob Miller mentioned, there were only a 128 men in he unit, so probably a pretty rare badge. May have to settle for a nice copy, but not at the silly prices I've seen them offered at.

Rob, thanks for the additional info.

Terry
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  #15  
Old 12-02-20, 06:18 PM
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Hopefully Jon sees this thread and has some additional information or perhaps a close up photograph. Yes certainly a rare badge.

Terry - just to clarify, what size is the Tech Rep badge?
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