Regina Rifles Battle Dress - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Roberto T · #1 07-02-12, 12:20 AM

Hi all,

First post on this forum. I would appreciate your feedback on this BD. I am unsure of the shoulder titles and would love a second opinion. I have had a knowledgeable collector take a look prior and he felt it was a solid tunic but couldnt comment with certainty about the shoulder titles.

Thanks a lot!

Roberto

Bill A · #2 07-02-12, 02:23 AM

The Regina Rifles Regiment are one of the most common infantry shoulder titles around. They are very similar from the SWW issue through the time of unification. The best way to determine the age of the title is by a look at the back of the title, and that may not be conclusive.
Some observations about the tunic. All the insignia appears to be sewn by hand, and uses the same sort of stitch. The insignia is appropriate for the end of the war. The mix of embroidered and printed is interesting, but not conclusive evidence either for good or bad. I am not sure about the spacing of the rank from the top of the sleeve, and the alignment of the insignia is a bit off.

Roberto T · #3 07-02-12, 02:34 AM

Thanks a lot for the reply Bill!
What would you expect to see on the back of the title? From just peeking it seems to be an off white cheese clothe material. Interestingly enough, it is my 3rd tunic with clothe regimental titles and canvis div patches. All 3 are from different sources and 2 have strong provenance.

Roberto

Bill A · #4 07-02-12, 12:14 PM

Hi Roberto, The backing is useful in that it is not the post 1960's synthetic backing. Unfortunately, there are some "repro" titles around that have a thinly woven cheesecloth type mesh backing.

Tanker Mike · #5 07-02-12, 04:18 PM

The spacing of the flashes is what concerns me, the spacing has to be uniform according to regulations, especially to rifle regiments. And the tunic is for a cpl, he is a junior NCO and has to show leadership to the junior ranks, you would think the stripes would be sewn on to the regulations.

edstorey · #6 07-02-12, 04:50 PM

From the images provided, my take on this is that this BD has been fabricated with original items. Provided you paid no more than what all of the individual elements would add up to, you should be okay.

Roberto T · #7 08-02-12, 01:31 AM

Thanks for the replies! Much appreciated. The rank chevrons certainly are higher than usual but the second pic gives the impression that they are sitting higher than they are. Either way as long as the parts are original I gues I am happy. Thanks again! Roberto

edstorey · #8 08-02-12, 03:15 AM

Since you came on this forum looking for advice, I will give you some. Buy some books and get familiar what what you intent to collect. From what I see from your posting is that you are just the sort of collector to get taken by repro and fakes as you appear to have very little knowledge of what you are collecting. If you are going to spend money on this stuff then you really need to invest in good reference information and do not just go by what other collectors tell you as many are in the same boat as you are, no references and badly informed.

Basing your decisions on other BD you have purchased is also a bad move, for I suspect that the others you own may also not be original. You really need to take in information from all sources, check what museums have on display or perhaps legions; and look at what other collectors have (at least those who have been collecting more than a few years) and yes, look in books.

Basically, if you have to check with internet forums on what you have purchased, then you are perhaps not approaching things correctly. I am not trying to be mean here, just passing on some advice.

Roberto T · #9 08-02-12, 04:57 AM

Hey Ed,

Thanks for the reply. I posted on this forum because I was uncomfortable with the tunic and its source and wanted the expertise of people like yourself and Bill Alexander..... If you look back at my posts I did not want to skew any opinions and was brief. I have not seeked forum opinions prior because I was confident in my purchases.

I have been collecting now for around 10 years but have gone through phases. I currently have a pretty reasonable battle dress collection but always stick to people in the community around Toronto that I know and trust or to items that have strong provenance. I diversify my sources and really emphasize items with provenance. Most of my BDs are named and have been researched through Arnie Kay who I have been in contact with for years. I do however always go for the safe bets........

As you can appreciate, the resources for Canadian battle dress collecting are pretty scant. Dressed to Kill provides barely a tasting of info needed to make a well informed decision and while into the Maelstrom is excellent it only covers para items. I will admit that I do not know all the backing variations to Regina Rifles titles, however, I posted the tunic because of my concerns with it. . . I know what I dont know and have no issues asking for opinions on questionable items......

I am a humble person who differs to people with serious expertise like yourself.... however I can assure you I am not an amateur or sucker... I appreciate where you are coming from as I too cringe when I see some of the BDs selling on eBay. This BD is my first real gamble on a BD from a source I have not dealt with before on a tunic I was uncomfortable with. I did/do however feel like this is a reasonable battle dress and not a clear cut joke like others offered. Frankly as I am sure you can tell from your BD collection, patches were often off center and it is not uncommon for chevrons not to be at regulation. What percentage of BDs actually have the tip of the arrow of the lowest service chevron 5.5 inches from the bottom of the cuff? Furthermore I would be surprised if you were uncomfortable with BDs which have mixed canvas/clothe insignia.

All in all though, I posted because while I am informed, I am not as informed as some on this forum and really respect your experience and expertise. This tunic also has mostly good qualities but given some questions I posted.

Bellow is a pic of a corporal in Loyal Edmonton Regiment at Ortona with high chevrons.

cheers,

Roberto

Bill A · #10 08-02-12, 12:31 PM

Hi Roberto, I wouldn't put too much weight on the image. The practices and policies for the placement of insignia evolved over the war. I don't have the measurements at hand, but when the shoulder titles were introduced they "pushed" the other insignia down the sleeve a bit. Inserting the nationality title also made some difference in the location. (In the Reg Rif case, they have CANADA in the title, so it was not necessary to wear the worsted one.)That second photo is troubling note the alignment issues between the shoulder title and division patch.

Roberto T · #11 09-02-12, 01:19 AM

Thanks Bill,

If you and Ed are suspect based on the off center placement, I must concede to your expertise and conclude this was likely a put together tunic.

On a second note, I am fully aware of the regulations regarding the CANADA titles and its placement on BDs. I did come across a Queens Own Rifles BD that was in fact missing the CANADA titles. As such I passed on the tunic. I have since come across a few Chaudiere pictures around June/July 44 and saw that a few were missing the patch.

Whats your feeling on BDs where the CANANDA patch is missing? As I mentioned prior, I usually only go for safe bets and would pass on these......

Bill A · #12 09-02-12, 01:52 AM

Hi Roberto, The question of authenticating tunics through images is difficult. The "sensory" components of touch and smell aren't available, and all the viewer has to go on are the details in the images. I would have liked to look at the inside of the sleeves, do a burn test on some of that stitching thread, and a uv test on the insignia. These would add some more evidence to the analysis.
There have been a spate of uniforms showing up lately, that after a long stare look okay, but then when they are parced in detail, there are more and more concerns. In this case, the orientation of the insignia on the proper axis on the arm is only one small piece of the puzzle. The regs specified how the patches and rank chevrons were to be worn, and the RSM, CSM or platoon Sgt had a lot of responsibility to make sure their men were turned out right and proper. It would be odd that a junior NCO would put together something like this. Added to the questionable shoulder titles, is the lack of identity. If there was a name / number it would be a lot better. Just too many questions for my comfort. My conclusion is not based solely on the alignment, but on the package.
Here is a link to another tunic that at first look is okay, but with some parcing really bothered me. With the prices being realized on Second World War tunics the possibility of fraud is always a concern. Scroll down to the 7/XI Hussars tunic.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2246528180/
The missing CANADA titles are again, a piece of the puzzle. If they should be there, but are missing, it is an additional piece of information to use. I would not dismiss a tunic because it was missing the nationality title, but I would use that in concert with other evidence. There were fellows that wouldn't put up everything they were supposed to, especially if they were out from under "watchful" eyes, as many were, once they were on their way home.
Tunics are just too easy to fake. It is quite possible to get a soldier's number / name, to acquire period insignia, and to stitch the badges on, (with the correct cotton or silk thread), and then offer it as an original. One can easily put together an 8th Recce or Cape Breton tunic with the availability of the badges. The sum is often worth far more than the parts.

Roberto T · #13 09-02-12, 02:17 AM

Agreed, nothing can beat assessing the tunic in person. I personally place very little emphasis on a negative UV test and or burn test. I figure if someone will put together a tunic with original insignia, they are very likely to not use synthetic thread. It is not difficult to track down a housewife or unissued thread around the net. They are specific tests in that if they are positive they are meaningful but if they are negative they do not indicate anything really. Case in point this tunic passed both.........
Unfortunately I agree that you always have to worry about repros/put together items. It will not be long until the repro Canadian items start rivaling the quality of some of the German repros.......
At the end of the day nothing beats experience and having multiple opinions......
cheers,

Roberto

Bill A · #14 09-02-12, 02:31 AM

Hi Roberto, Yes, the day of the usefulness of uv and burn are on the way out, which makes all the incidental evidence that much more important. But they still should be used, especially if one is spending several hundred dollars on a tunic.
That 7/XI tunic is a case in point. Incidental evidence. The more I look at that the more it is wrong.
It would be neat to see some of your other tunics.

chaudiere1944 · #15 09-02-12, 02:42 AM

Hi Roberto,

If you have copies of the Chaudiere photos I would be very interested in seeing them...if they are from the online LAC website no need as I have all those.

As for the Chaudiere BD's missing the Canada Title, I too have seen some Second World War photographic evidence of this. Additionally I have seen photographic evidence of Chaudiere BD's that were missing the 3rd Division Title and all sorts of configurations for the spacing between the Regiment/Canada/Division Titles. I have documented 8 Cloth Titles and 2 Canvas Titles thus far for the Chaudiere during the Second World War period, as such it would appear that a great deal of variety and some inconsistency with Regulations existed for their BD's. In my observation, where the inconsistency is most prevalent is the difference for photographs that were taken in the 'Field' versus the 'Studio' photographs for the Chaudiere. In all the 'Studio' photographs I have seen (which likely is the Soldier wearing their Walking Out BD) all the proper Titles are present, in alignment and spaced according to Regulations whereas the 'Field' pictures have a variety of configurations.

As has been mentioned in previous postings on the Forum, most of all the BD's on the market and or seen today are Walking Out BD's, for that reason I would expect your BD to have all the Titles in alignment and spaced correctly to be considered not put together.

By the way I live in the Toronto area as well (Brampton), perhaps we will bump into one another at one of the local Militaria Shows.

All the best,
Mike