RAOC annodised examples

[Mike_2817]

Has anybody any references to the 1947 Wide RAOC Cap Badge (SUA TELA TONANTI) in all gold anodised? It is one of the first anodised badges made I believe.

Were any 1949 RAOC Collar Badges produced in anodised?

Copies of info and or pictures of sealed patterns etc most welcome

[Mike H]

I`ll be honest Mike,ive heard it mentioned.But ive never seen one,or collars.The kc version of the short scroll appears and a few people have them in their collections.The only KC collars that i can remember off the top of my head is Cameron Highlanders.So,other than that im sorry i cant help further.

[grey_green_acorn]

In 1985 I saw a 1947 pattern RAOC Cap Badge (SUA TELA TONANTI) K&K 2124 in all gold anodised in the museum display at the MOD Royal Armaments Research and Development Establishment (RARDE) at Fort Halstead near Sevenoaks, Kent. If memory serves it was labelled as an experiment in 1949 in making cap badges in anodised aluminium that did not require polishing.
RARDE Fort Halstead became QINETIQ and the DSTL but I believe the site has been sold to a developer.

EDIT just realised it was 1983 - even longer ago!

[Mike_2817]

Mike, Yes collers were not really worn post war other than in No1 & No10 Mess Dress. I have unmatched 1947 (LargeTonanti) 'Collar Badges' in both Right & Left, as well as several 1949 'Slim Tonanti' Bi-Metal examples, but I feel probably never produced in A/A The first probably produced c1960 for the new No2 Dress.

Grey_Green_Acorn, I have heard of the RARDE example but was not sure where it was. I think I will try and track it down for a photograph, and to see if it still exists!

A number of 1947 badges were reportedly produced and issued to 15 Battalion RAOC at Bicester for troop trails but not many will have survived! Another example was reported to be in the Pattern Room at D.I.S.C. at COD Didcot in the late 50's but I have never been able to confirm that as it would have been a NIV sample with no stock history.

[54Bty]

I was at RARDE a couple of years back moving stuff, never did see any badge displays.

[grey_green_acorn]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

I was at RARDE a couple of years back moving stuff, never did see any badge displays.

54Bty
1985 was 24 years ago! IIRC it was displayed in a small frame on the wall in the room that also contained examples of the EOD "wheelbarrow" and other specialist equipment developed over the years. Not surprised it had gone when you visited a couple of years back, but is there a DERA/QINETIQ/DSTL display somewhere? Even if there is I doubt an anodised cap badge would be now seen as much of a scientific breakthrough worthy of exhibiting!

EDIT just realised it was 1983 - even longer ago!

[Mike_2817]

Well after 3 months I have not had a reply re this elusive 1947 Pattern 'Wide Tonanti' RAOC Badge, and GM versions are not that common either!

1949 'Slim Tonanti' AA Badges were made, and I now know of at least 8 examples in collections (one in mine) which were in themselves I think early trails examples not approved for issue.

I have requested pictures front & back of these 1949 AA badges to compare and see if they are all of the same batch or not.


As a remider, here are the 4 Patterns of post 1918 RAOC Badges

Top -
1918 Pattern - Corps Title
1947 Pattern - Sua Tela Tonanti (Wide Tonanti) 'Shot lived'
Bottom -
1949 Pattern - 'KC' Sua Tela Tonanti (Slim Tonanti)
1952 Pattern - Crown change to 'QC'

[ukbrits]

Hi Mike 2817,
I have to agree with you that these "slim Tonanti" badges were probably trial versions.
In the L.O.C of November 1951 when the M.O.D listed it's future intention to authorise a/a badges to Regiments, I believe manufacturers would have allready produced and trialed some a/a badges. I think the K.C 1949 badge was one of those patterns trialed for possible usage when existing stocks of metal badges were exhausted. Hence why a few of these slim Tonanti's are in collections.

As for the 1947 "wide Tonanti" well, we have all heard and spoken to people who say they have either seen one or got one, but so far no photographic evidence. Maybe one day ,it's not impossible I guess!

I have posted 2 pics below of the 2 versions of the slim Tonanti a/a badge. They are both from the same die but have different ways of attaching the slider to the main body.
1. The first pic shows the slider attached straight onto the badge - not unlike a/a badges produced today.
2. The second pic shows the badge attached using a "swans neck" type fitment.

Best Regards.
UKbrits

[hagwalther]

Hi Mike,

Did you manage to reconcile the 1949 A/A badge with badge 'E'?

Regards

Chris

[Paddy]

Mike

A couple more pictures for you to peruse, has seen better days but still happy I've got it (does this make it 9 known badges in collections?)

Paddy

[Mike_2817]

ukbrit, Thanks for your comments and illustrations, and yes I have come across both methods of slider as well. Mine is a Swan Neck, and I am looking for an example of the other.

I did have another 1949 example which was glued (Araldite by the look of it) onto a board with other GM & BM examples of differant pattens where the sliders had been cut of sometime in the 1960's for a RAOC Mess Display Frame, which I sold on in the end to a retired RAOC friend who just wanted them for display himself.

Paddy, That makes 11 I know know about (plus another 2 possibles)

I sent Chris pictures of 6 KC Bi-Metal Badges in one & two Piece construction where other than the JR Gaunt example are in fact one-piece pressings with a nickle shield brazed over the top, because I think it was at first intended to be a all GM badge, and some examples do in fact exist as such. Mean one of the could be by the same maker as the early 1949 AA badges which are die pressed in the same manor.


Re the 1947 'Wide Tonanti' AA Badges. Untill I see phisical evidence other tham hearsay I am not 100% sure of there exsistance dispite a very good Ordnance collector friend of long standing stating he saw one about 10 years ago. No one has produced a good photograph or sample to convince me.


One dealer member on here says he sold one around the same time (so may be the same badge?) but cannot or will not substantiate his claim or name the collector he sold it to, and I am surprised he did not photograph it for his own reference?