Something new every day

[Peter Brydon]

One thing that makes this hobby so interesting is that you do literally learn something new on an almost daily basis.

Attached is a picture of a button ( currently listed on E bay ) of the Burnley Carabineers. I have to confess I have never heard of this unit before.

P.B.

A process of elimination : Burnley is in Lancashire ! Carabineers are mounted troops ! Checking out Lancashire Yeomanry Regiments - only 2 - Duke of Lancasters Own Yeomanry and the Lancashire Hussars. Forget the Lancashire Hussars (in my opinion) and go back to the formation of the Duke's. Originally formed from 3 independent troops in 1828 and retained on pay until 1834. If Burnley was one of those 3 troops then they existed (in name) 1828-1834. Best guess, I'm afraid but I will defer to more informed opinion. Regards and, by the way, a nice button. David

[Peter Brydon]

David,
Not quite so simple, I have both the Barlow and Smith book on the DLOY and a photocopy of Algernon Earles book on the Lancashire Hussars ( plus various other articles on the Hussars ).

There is a table in the Barlow/Smith book listing various Independent troops of Yeomanry and Light Horse Volunteers in the County of Lancaster 1797-1828 but no mention of Burnley. The DLOY being formed in 1828 by the amalgamation of 3 independent Troops from Bolton,Wigan,and Furness.The Hussars being formed in 1848 from ( I have always understood ) catholic members of the DLOY,which explains the similarity of the Lancashire Hussars cap badge to that of the DLOY`s field service cap badge 1901-1909.

Can find no mention of Burnley anywhere in any of the literature I have on the DLOY or Lancs Hussars.

P.B.

There is a suburb of Melbourne called Burnley ?

It never is that simple, is it ? Your mention of a Burnley nr. Melbourne is a good possibility - the Australians loved the title 'carabineers' so you may well have hit the nail on the head. DLOY and LH were long-shots and, I believe, their lace was gilt which would make a silver plated or white metal button inappropriate. Can any of our friends down-under shed any light on Burnley nr. Melbourne ? Fascinating stuff this research, isn't it ? Regards. David

hi peter
its from the West Indies ask Dixson pickup to day

Peter

[Peter Brydon]

Thanks Peter.

I did a web Gazetteer check and other than Lancashire, the only other Burnley that came up was near Melbourne.

Peter

Peter - As Shakespeare said - 'put not thy trust in kings and princes'. Simply because one button dealer says it is something doesn't mean that it is. It is merely one person's opinion - and we shouldn't forget that ! King and Kipling, Howard Ripley, Parkyn, Wilkinson-Latham, John Gaylor - they all made mistakes. Just for clarification - in which part of the West Indies do we find a Burnley ? Perhaps if there is an answer to THAT question then we begin to see credibility in the opinion put forward. Regards. David

[badgecollector]

Originally Posted by David Douglas

It never is that simple, is it ? Your mention of a Burnley nr. Melbourne is a good possibility - the Australians loved the title 'carabineers' so you may well have hit the nail on the head. DLOY and LH were long-shots and, I believe, their lace was gilt which would make a silver plated or white metal button inappropriate. Can any of our friends down-under shed any light on Burnley nr. Melbourne ? Fascinating stuff this research, isn't it ? Regards. David

hi david
i have collected australian for 30+ yrs and 'carabineers' is not a term the ausies use. instead, they use "mounted rifles" as in VMR, NSWMR etc.
but you are correct that there is a burnley in or around the melbourne region and i actualy sore a collonial auxilary medal the other day named to the burnly rifles. as far as im aware, they wore the standard pre federation victoria (as in the state of ) HP and buttons
bc

bc - I had always understood that most Commonwealth countries had units of carabineers from time to time - cavalry units specialising in carbine shooting from the saddle as opposed to lances. Were there not carabineers in the Anzac forces at Gallipoli ? Regards. David

[Deejayuu]

Found this button in a specialist Bosley Auction 15th Feb 2006, lot 300. Not much detail but it does state the button was made in London.
Dave

[badgecollector]

Originally Posted by David Douglas

bc - I had always understood that most Commonwealth countries had units of carabineers from time to time - cavalry units specialising in carbine shooting from the saddle as opposed to lances. Were there not carabineers in the Anzac forces at Gallipoli ? Regards. David

hi david
simply put no. they were all light horse or mounted rifles units. i cant for the life of me think of an aussie unit that has the word carabineer?
bc

[slick_mick]

The closest would have been the Bush Veldt Carbineers during the Boer War (South African unit full of Australians including "Breaker" Morant.

Mick

Mick - The Bush Veldt Carabineers was discussed in a thread last week but please remember that the British Army also had carabineers - the 3rd as regular cavalry and the Hampshire as Yeomanry, so the title is not quite so unusual. We still seem no nearer to solving the riddle of the Burnley Carabineers - do we ? Still searching. Regards. David

Iwas fortunate to pay a visit to South Africa a few years ago and while in Pretoria my guide took me to the Graveyard where Breaker Morant is buried along with his CO-OP I do not know if it was Vandals or accident but his headstone had been broken off but it had been positioned in a way that looked OK He is buried not far from where President Kruger is interned.
BLIZZARD

[4966Ian]

Hi there,

I am not sure of the rules regarding me posting about this item, as I am actually selling the Button in question on ebay at the moment. If you prefer that I do not comment, can one of the moderators please remove my post, and please accept my apologies.

It is very surreal to see one of your items being discussed. I also couldn't find any record of the button or unit in my reference books but as we all know no reference books are perfect. As the button didn't fit into my Berkshire area of interest it had to go to free up cash etc. I have to admit, I hadn't even considered that it wasn't to the Burnely in Lancashire and could in fact be from Australia etc.

I don't have much more to add to the thread other than the following facts which might help in the identification process.

a.) The actual title on the Button is "BURNLEY CARABINIERS" rather than "... CARABINEERS" (I am not knowledgeable enough to know whether this makes a difference to the location of the original unit or was just down to how the unit wished to be known or how the button manufacturer spelt it).

b.) The button is 22mm in diameter and the back-mark is "HAWKES & Co 14 PICCADILLY LONDON". Again, I don't know whether this aids or hinders indentification and the likely time span when the button was made. (I have attached a photo of the back mark out of interests sake).

c.) I also had a smaller button to the same unit which I recently sold on ebay. (#130242108085). This was a 16mm Officer’s silver plated button with a screw post fitting. Unfortunately the screw post had obscured most of the back mark, but it was still possible to make out "HAWES & Co LONDON".

d.) If any of the button collectors want a higher quality picture (i.e. uncompressed and about 1.5mb) for their records or out of interest, please let me know.

Regards

Ian