Helmet plates with relacement crowns.

[Diehard]

Hi All,

Firstly, appologies if this has already been covered. I couldn't find a thread on it. I have been offered a 20th middlesex rife vols helmet plate, which has a replacement kings crown.

I'm assuming this must have been a cost saving measure. When a new monarch comes to the thrown it was cheaper to convert the crown instead of ordering new badges. The badge in question looks ok and both parts look to have genuine age.

I was after some info regards this practice.

1. Was it common for crowns to be replaced ?
2. Wouldn't it have been more hassle/cost to convert these badges ?
3. If offered such an example should you expect to pay less than for an item with the correct crown ?

Thanks

Will

[wright241]

Originally Posted by Diehard

Hi All,

Firstly, appologies if this has already been covered. I couldn't find a thread on it. I have been offered a 20th middlesex rife vols helmet plate, which has a replacement kings crown.

I'm assuming this must have been a cost saving measure. When a new monarch comes to the thrown it was cheaper to convert the crown instead of ordering new badges. The badge in question looks ok and both parts look to have genuine age.

I was after some info regards this practice.

1. Was it common for crowns to be replaced ?
2. Wouldn't it have been more hassle/cost to convert these badges ?
3. If offered such an example should you expect to pay less than for an item with the correct crown ?

Thanks

Will

I do not know whether it was "common practice" or not, but I have had a few HP's where the workmanship of a repair(more likely) than replacement was excellent - and others, where it was appalling and looked like someone was trying to fake an earlier variant of the badge, badly. Never mind whether the question of fantasy HP's.
Modern solder and fluxes are quite easy to identify. Silver solder isn't because you can easily age it. One of mine that had been repaired was a blue cloth Welch Regiment officers 1st Volunteer Battn (attached scroll type). Quite frankly, I couldn't tell whether the replacement KC was the original one re-fitted, or another replacement. The repair was very good and almost a match (patina wise) for the rest of the plate. The breakage line was barely perceptable. It also fetched a good price (as described) at W&W and I never received any correspondence about it - and I lived at the same address for 3 years after the sale....
Another one I had was an O/R's 18th Foot with a KC that had been lead soldered - it was a rubbish repair and I cannot imagine that it ever saw real "service" life.
I am sure someone else may know more about the repair culture at that time.
As a general comment to your remark about changing crowns being more hassle. Yes it would. If it was common practice to do it I am sure we would be finding loads of unused crowns anyway.
If the repair seems "reasonable" and you want it, Yes. But if the repair looks like a bodged job a) it may not last and b) if you ever want to sell it, it will be described as such and will affect the selling price.
Notwithstanding its rarity value. Even rare stamps that are obviously damaged or "repaired" can still fetch a good price. I see no difference with (old) badges when you take their age into account.
Good luck

[Deejayuu]

Originally Posted by Diehard

Hi All,

Firstly, appologies if this has already been covered. I couldn't find a thread on it. I have been offered a 20th middlesex rife vols helmet plate, which has a replacement kings crown.

I'm assuming this must have been a cost saving measure. When a new monarch comes to the thrown it was cheaper to convert the crown instead of ordering new badges. The badge in question looks ok and both parts look to have genuine age.

I was after some info regards this practice.

1. Was it common for crowns to be replaced ?
2. Wouldn't it have been more hassle/cost to convert these badges ?
3. If offered such an example should you expect to pay less than for an item with the correct crown ?

Thanks

Will

Will,
you do not say whether your query relates to an officers or other ranks helmet plate. If it were an other ranks badge, if the crown has been spliced to the main body it has quite simply been repaired. The helmet plate ceased to be worn by other ranks during the Victorian era with exceptions only being to the bands and special ceremonial occasions. The badges would have been originally struck in a single piece.
With regards to Officers helmet plates, this is something completely different. I am lucky enough to have 8 Officers helmet plates all of which are genuine. The 4 QVC plates have crown and main badge body struck in a single piece. Stiffeners have been used to strengthen weak points but the crowns and badge bodies have never been seperated. However, of the 4 KC plates i have, on close inspection three of them have ben modified, one of them twice! It was common practise for officers helmet plates to be upgraded in the same fashion that weapons were to incorporate current standards. It was cheeper to fit new sights on a rifle rather than throw the whole weapon away and replace it with new. The same thing applies to Officers Helmet plates which are were expensive items to replace. Many QVC badges being worn were sent to the likes of Gaunt or equivilant of the time to have the badges upgraded by fitting of the new KC. The badges would be stripped down, crown cut off, new crown fitted and new gilt finish applied. The gilt on these badges is quite different from modern gilt finish as Arsenic i beleive was used as a carrier / medium which cannot be used today giving it that very distinct finish. These modification would have happened circa 1902. Many badges were further officially modifed to put an additional title scroll directly below the crown. The quality of the remanufactured badges should be consistent and of very high standard. They should be easy to spot against repaired badges where the braze is apparant. The re-manufactured badges should only be officers and should never have a QVC on them. The remanufactured badges are official badges and as such should not differ in price from other similar badges. If anything, they should cost more as they are older, with more history, less likely to be a restrike and probably manufactured to a higher standard.
Officers helmet plates are expensive items and they are still being manufactured and sold as can be seen prolifically on ebay. They are very good quality and they can be difficult to distinguish from the originals. However, when was the last time you saw a remanufactured restrike?????? Repaired badges are something totally different. These would have probably been done by the officers batman or within the regiment with quality of repair varying. If the badge was repaired after regimental use it could have been repaired by anyone with quality of repair varying greatly. A remanufactured badge should never have any brazing visible on the front of the badge as the badge would have been regilted.
Hope this helps, Dave

[Diehard]

Thanks Wright241,

I wondered if it was just a repair. I've been told that examples do exist where the crowns were removed because a new monarch came to the thrown. Don't know if anyone can confirm this.

I've seen a couple where you would hardly know a new crown had been fitted. A repair would be the more likely explanation.

Will

[Diehard]

Originally Posted by Deejayuu

Will,
you do not say whether your query relates to an officers or other ranks helmet plate. If it were an other ranks badge, if the crown has been spliced to the main body it has quite simply been repaired.

Thanks Dave, for the info & comprehensive reply. the badge in question is blackened brass, so I assumed an OR example ? I'll find out more.

Cheers

Will

It is true that when Victoria died some regiments, impatient to get their new helmet plates, sourced crowns and had their plates modified. I remember reading somewhere that Hobsons were quite quick off the mark and already had king's crowns manufactured and waiting for 'the day'. Remember that it really only affected the home service helmet plate - so regiments serving abroad were unaffected by any delay in producing the new 1902 backing plates and associated modifications. This applied particularly to Bns. serving in the Boer War and in India. Regards. David

[Diehard]

Originally Posted by David Douglas

It is true that when Victoria died some regiments, impatient to get their new helmet plates, sourced crowns and had their plates modified. I remember reading somewhere that Hobsons were quite quick off the mark and already had king's crowns manufactured and waiting for 'the day'. Remember that it really only affected the home service helmet plate - so regiments serving abroad were unaffected by any delay in producing the new 1902 backing plates and associated modifications. This applied particularly to Bns. serving in the Boer War and in India. Regards. David

David,

I thought recycling was a new fad Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

Will

[Peter Brydon]

If I could add my tuppence worth.

I have only come across one example of the crown on a helmet plate being changed and this was on a 1st Cheshire Rifle Volunteer officers helmet from when I collected Cheshire Regt as well as Kings Liverpool items.

There is a poor ( pre digital ) picture attached,the item is top right and the " alteration" was superbly done.The plate was made by Hobsons but I dont know if they did the alteration.

The first interesting thing to me is that the few conversions mentioned here appear to be Volunteer items, I wonder if the regulars were content to leave insignia alone untill it needed replacing ( echos of Gaylor and the wearing of Kings crown badges when it should have been replaced by queens crown versions)

The second thing that occurs to me is that where Volunteer officers still wearing their old volunteer helmet plates when they should have been changed to V.B. pattern ?

P.B.

[Cardiffbloke]

Can i just put a Cav perspective on this. The pic below clearly shows a VR cypher'd martingale with a Tudor Crown. I posed the Q of why? to a respected expert in the field and he explained just that..... A cost saving measure. The modification is perfect and it's proved subsequently to be quite a common practice. So it poses the Q, if they did it with horse furniture, why not much more expensive badges?

[Diehard]

Originally Posted by Cardiffbloke

Can i just put a Cav perspective on this. The pic below clearly shows a VR cypher'd martingale with a Tudor Crown. I posed the Q of why? to a respected expert in the field and he explained just that..... A cost saving measure. The modification is perfect and it's proved subsequently to be quite a common practice. So it poses the Q, if they did it with horse furniture, why not much more expensive badges?

Cardiffbloke,

it seems like alot of agro to me. Youve got to send your badge off (so youre without one for a while), the crowns got to be removed a new crowns got to be stamped, then soldered on, which must take a bit of skill. Wouldn't just stamping a new one be easier ?

I suppose there could be a delay in making new dies ???

Will

[Cardiffbloke]

Hi Will
Yes i agree mate, it seems an awful lot of hassle but do it they did!
Sadly the other 3 parts of this picture seem to have 'gone west' but the number of examples of 'new' crowns fitted to 'old' martingales across the whole Cav was amazing. So; happen it did and that's a fact; the reason behind this decision... Well who will ever know? They are all dead..... Maybe somewhere in a vault in the IWM is a dusty old edict... but i don't have the time or inclination to look for it....
H

[wright241]

Originally Posted by Cardiffbloke

Hi Will
Yes i agree mate, it seems an awful lot of hassle but do it they did!
Sadly the other 3 parts of this picture seem to have 'gone west' but the number of examples of 'new' crowns fitted to 'old' martingales across the whole Cav was amazing. So; happen it did and that's a fact; the reason behind this decision... Well who will ever know? They are all dead..... Maybe somewhere in a vault in the IWM is a dusty old edict... but i don't have the time or inclination to look for it....
H

What an incredible collection. I gather (from UK contacts) that you can now shoot burglers... Damn. Lovely items.
David

[Diehard]

Originally Posted by Cardiffbloke

Hi Will
Yes i agree mate, it seems an awful lot of hassle but do it they did!
Sadly the other 3 parts of this picture seem to have 'gone west' but the number of examples of 'new' crowns fitted to 'old' martingales across the whole Cav was amazing. So; happen it did and that's a fact; the reason behind this decision... Well who will ever know? They are all dead..... Maybe somewhere in a vault in the IWM is a dusty old edict... but i don't have the time or inclination to look for it....
H

I think its good they got the maximum use out of them. They are fantastic items. We sadly live in a throw away society, where nothings made to last......oh dear I sound like my Dad, must be getting old

Will