Officers cap badges with loops/lugs

[Diehard]

Hi All,

I know the general rule of thumb is Bronze Officers cap badges generally
have blades and badges with loops tend to be collars.

I know, for example with some of the large middlesex collar badges, dealers sometimes get them mixed up with cap badges.

Are there many exceptions to this rule ?

Does anyone have any examples they could show of genuine types with loops?

Thanks

Will.

[cbuehler]

I would like to get further clarification on this as well. There are some who swear that lugged osd cap badges exist, but what is the truth?

CB

Hello - I believe you have started with a misconception - presuming you are referring to officers' service dress cap badges. Lugs (or blades) are a development of loops and appeared quite late in the history of OSD cap badges. Over 45 years I have come across literally hundreds (if not thousands) of OSD cap badges with 'loops' not lugs (blades). It should also be remembered that OSD cap badges can be found with sliders, so there is no hard-and-fast rule. You may also be distracted by the occasional example where the collar badge is of identical size to the cap badge but collar badges, as you rightly say, will always have loops. Don't forget the occasions where both cap badge and collar badges have 3 loops - something else to confuse. I believe the critical factor is size - if the badge is the size a cap badge should be (check the sealed pattern) then it is irrelevant whether it has lugs or loops - unless, of course, there is mirror imaging of collar badgeswhen the mirror image can only be a collar badge. I recall having a lengthy discussion on this at the MHS HQ many years ago when I used the Sherwood Foresters OSD badges as examples. My advice is - don't get pushed too tightly into a corner on this issue - you will be astounded with what you find - over 45 years of collecting. Regards. David

[Diehard]

David,

thanks for that comprehensive reply. Sorry I must have got a little confused regards officers badges.

I thought officers OSD generally had blades

You've put me right

Cheers

Will

[Malcolm Davey]

In 1902 when OSD dress was introduced,the cap badge had blades and the collars which in most cases were the same size as the cap badge had Lugs/Loops IMO.
We know that when blades were broken the officers would use a collar badge as it was the same size, but it must also be pointed out that in some regiments other ranks badges were made of bronze or were bronzed which had lugs and or sliders which some people get confused and think they are OSD badges;
Here is an example of an OSD cap badge and a collar badge the same size plus an other ranks badge that has been bronzed with a slider.

Malc

[Unknownsoldier]

"collar badges,...will always have loops"

I have a set of Fusiliers OSD Bronze collar dogs, with blades not loops, surely bladed collars are not unnusual???

Tom

[davec2]

Hi,
I have always been under the impression that lugs referred to eyelets ( loops ), the sliders were self explanetry and blades again seem to mean only one thing, I can't understand how a lug can be confused with a blade.
Another point I have been told is that the collar badge was usually the same size as the forage cap badge but in bronze, eyelets for the collars and blades for the caps, perhaps I'm confusing myself, after all, I am new to collecting !!
Dave.

[Malcolm Davey]

Originally Posted by Unknownsoldier

"collar badges,...will always have loops"

I have a set of Fusiliers OSD Bronze collar dogs, with blades not loops, surely bladed collars are not unnusual???

Tom

"collar badges,...will always have loops" who are you quoting??
I would be interested in seeing your "Fusiliers OSD Bronze collar dogs, with blades not loops" and can you please give the measurements.

Malc

[Unknownsoldier]

Sorry I was quoting David, my collars are still attached to the uniform, however they are the same size as the peaked hatbadge, I always thought it wwas just the officers choice whether he had blades or loops?? I'll get a pic next time I'm home.

Tom

[Diehard]

Dave,- I'm glad its not just me

Tom, - thats something I didn't know collars can have blades.

Cheers
Will

[Diehard]

Malc,

thanks for the pics, I notice the Leinster collars are slightly lighter coloured
than the cap badge. Does that tend to be case with other regiments ?
Or is this just manufacturers variation ?

Cheers
Will

[54Bty]

I should think that the Officers tailor applied the badges he had in stock, as a lot of them are all the same design he may not have bothered with what has become a rule. I have a set of cap and collar badges from an Officer in the Suffolk Regiment all have lugs, they were worn as cap and collar, he did not get a cap badge with blades till the end of the war (WWI).

These may help as there are various terms used for the different methods of attaching the badges. Of course this is what I call them;

Lugs - brass - on cap, collar, sleeve badges and shoulder titles.
Lugs - brass - on shoulder titles.
Lugs - aa - as brass.
Blades - on cap, collar badges, and possibly some sleeve badges.
Slider or Vertical Shank - on cap and beret badges.
Post - brass and aa, on collar badges post 1951. There is also the longer post found on the RRF and RWF cap and beret badges.

Then there is the clutch and pin which can be found on both collar badges and shoulder titles, not forgetting the pin on its own on the RSigs cap and beret badge.

I have seen loops or rings on some Canadian and Indian badges, these are similar to the lugs but without the vertical post.

May I ask where the authority comes from for saying that OFFICERS' COLLAR BADGES HAD LUGS (blades) ? In addition, the statement that officers would replace a broken cap badge with a collar badge BECAUSE THEY WERE THE SAME SIZE ? For the record, I disagree with both statements but will be corrected if the appropriate evidence is presented. In 45 years of collecting and cataloguing I cannot remember a single lugged (bladed) OSD collar badge and I know of no regiment where the OSD collar badge was the same size as the cap badge as an EXCLUSIVE design. I would welcome further comment but would urge the use of authority/evidence in support. A good topic. David

[Diehard]

54Bty,

much appreciated. Thanks.

Will

[Diehard]

Here are some pics and this is what I think they are

1. Cap badge Middx
2. Collar badge Middx
3. Collar badge Middx 10btn (but it was sold as a cap badge)

What do you think ?

Will