Infantry Scarlet Frock Shoulder Title change from embroidered to metal

[John Mulcahy]

Can anyone provide me with general dates for when Infantry regimental titles on the scarlet frock ceased to be embroidered directly into the shoulder straps and the metal titles (first approved for the khaki frocks) were used instead.

thanks

John

[lettman]

John,
Westlake in the introduction to his shoulder titles book states that metal titles were being issued by 1907 to replace the directly stitched-on titles, and that by 1908 they 'were being worn throughout the British Army'.

[John Mulcahy]

Thank you very much, your reply prompted me to look else where and Michael Barthorp in "British Infantry Uniforms since 1660" also claims 1908.

John

[KLR]

John, I think I’ve seen the 1907 order too but according to my notes on King’s Regt titles their ?metal title was authorised 16-11-1897. There was a new style on 18-01-1905 which was described as “Titles GM for SS of khaki drill frocks Jackets GCoats Service Dress AR, “Kings” (Liverpool Rgt) “ and 10,000 were ordered.

[lettman]

Certainly metal titles in various forms and to various units were being introduced well before 1907, as a number of the examples in Westlake indicate. It would seem that 1907/1908 is the point at which they became standard throughout the army.

[grey_green_acorn]

The first early patterns of khaki drab service dress jacket did not have shoulder straps (epaulettes) so cloth titles were worn at the top of the sleeve until c1908 when shoulder straps were added. Metal shoulder titles were worn on other orders of dress before 1908 - e.g. on khaki drill frocks (jackets) in South Africa (Boer War) and on "Walking out" dress (blue patrols etc) and on greatcoats.

[John Mulcahy]

Yes I agree metal shoulder titles were in use prior to 1907. What I see from looking through the WO359 is that the first official GM titles for khaki dress were sealed for the Irish line regiments in 1899. There were of course some regimental patterns and officer patterns in use prior to this date.

The WO files state the 1899 patterns as being the ‘First Patterns” What I was interested is when did these GM titles originally only sealed for khaki dress begin to be used on the scarlet frock full dress as well.

As a matter of interest I note that the Irish Cavalry had first GM titles sealed in 1897 (the separate number and letter titles as in “5” “L”), the one piece titles were sealed in 1907 for "Tunics, frock jackets & great coats all ranks' (as in “5L”)


John

[John Mulcahy]

Some data to add, I was tidying up some notes from a recent visit to the NA and did not realize that I had found the following

From WO359 vol. 14 page 2,

With reference to ACD/India/1654 18/04/1905

“On 5/5/05 it is approved to abolish the embroidered titles on the sleeves of great coats and service dress jackets – substituting them for metal as a cost saving measure. It is now proposed to extend this to tunics and full dress frocks abroad”

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

Can anyone provide me with general dates for when Infantry regimental titles on the scarlet frock ceased to be embroidered directly into the shoulder straps and the metal titles (first approved for the khaki frocks) were used instead.

thanks

John

Apart from Militia, Bands etc, the scarlet frock was discontinued in 1902, so there was, in general, no use for metal titles on frocks [as opposed to tunics] after that year.

This was not the case in India, where the India Pattern frock was the smartest issue in lieu of the tunic.

I will have a look at the RACD ledgers to try to pin down first dates for metal titles to be provided.

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by grumpy

Apart from Militia, Bands etc, the scarlet frock was discontinued in 1902, so there was, in general, no use for metal titles on frocks [as opposed to tunics] after that year.

This was not the case in India, where the India Pattern frock was the smartest issue in lieu of the tunic.

I will have a look at the RACD ledgers to try to pin down first dates for metal titles to be provided.

Thank you very much, I would appreciate any information. Your response has also made me realise that I have mixed up the frock coat with the tunic and it is in fact the adoption of metal titles on the latter that I am interested in.

John

[grumpy]

sorry to say my notes did not include anything of use: I was mostly interested in "trade" badges.

For what it is worth, line infantry:

Tunic = scarlet or dark blue or rifle green best, tailored, often lined, fully embellished according to date and regimental custom/ privilege, almost always 7 buttons, no visible pockets.

Frock = colours as above, second best until 1902, loosely cut for comfort, 5 or 7 buttons, virtually no piping, minimal badges BUT drummers etc wore their appointment badge, which was not necessary on tunic because drummers etc tunics instantly recognisable.

Indian pattern frock = the "best" garment, partly embellished as if it were a tunic but loosely cut, unlined, with the old pattern "Zulu War" crows foot piping

Blue Patrols = privately or regimentally purchased, 4 pockets, stand up collar, 5 buttons and also pocket buttons. Barrack and walking out dress.

Service Dress jacket = 1902 drab, which evolved into the Great war top garment.

Frock coat = officers and bandmasters long dark blue mainly for barrack wear.

Sorry if I am teaching to suck eggs.