the yorkshire regiment

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

These two badges have been donated to the Oxfordshire Yeomanry Trust. They belonged to Lt Wastie, who was originally an Oxfordshire Yeoman, although he was subsequently commissioned into the Yorkshire Regiment. The Yorks badge is probably one of his collar badges, but what about the cloth badges - are they likely to have been from the Yorkshire Regiment?

[harribobs]

Originally Posted by Luke Halls

Could well be Julian but if it is an '03 badge the guy must have been a "very old contemptable" if still serving as a private in 1914.
Cheers,

Luke

the majority of reservists and serving soldiers in 1914 were privates

Paul Scholes should have walked... "Same old man u always cheating."

Chelsea are gonna beat you in Moscow

1 Manchester United 38 27 6 5 58 87
2 Chelsea 38 25 10 3 39 85

[Jibba Jabba]

I`m going to disagree with everybody......sorry

I think the badge that started this thread is Edwardian as worn during WW1 by the regular battalions of the Yorkshire Regiment who served in France and Flanders. The badge was possibly a re-issue from the stores or more likely belonged to a soldier who may of possibly been a serving soldier during the reign of Victoria or Edward like Luke said.

As I am sure Mr Administrator aka Mike can confirm on the medal front the 14 Star and bar combination with Queen South Africa medal is not uncommon. I realise that many of the vets of SA time had expired and were once again recalled from Army Reserve, but there were also many who carried on all the way through. Take a look at the Colour Sergeants and RSM's of the regular Battalions all of them 'lifers' and whos to say this badge didnt belong to one them?

Let us be honest, when the badge is on a cap there is no real difference between a lugged and slidered badge in the eyes of the RSM or any officer.

As for the Gaunt tablet perhaps KLR can dig out a reference at the NA to an order put to Gaunt from the regiment?

If you wanted to be really clever you could of course blow my entire arguement out of the water by declaring the fact that if this badge had seen so much service why isnt it showing signs of extreme polishing ?!?

Maybe we are analysing this to the extreme, perhaps all that happened one day in 1914 was some Quartermaster found a box of old badges with lugs and decided to hand them out to a line of new members of the Batallion?

[dragonz18]

Just to add my 'two pennies worth'
the last part of JJ's post ,is an area of extreme confusion in the British army in 1914. One only has to look in Westlake's book on the Kitchener's army, to see the profusion of odd badge's being worn.From cardboard disks to shoulder titles & collars & buttons , etc being worn on caps,at that time, to think it likely that many 'conversions 'of other stock ( & older) items & even possibly local made 'cast copies', etc could have helped to solve the QM's dilemma ?
Just a thought ?
Cheers !
Steve

PS: further to this..... many years ago I had an all w/m Manchester Vol's badge with the Vol disk removed. I seem to remember being told that this may have come from this period ??

[harribobs]

Originally Posted by dragonz18

PS: further to this..... many years ago I had an all w/m Manchester Vol's badge with the Vol disk removed. I seem to remember being told that this may have come from this period ??

wouldn't surprise me at all

we assume that the QMs would be totally sticking to the rules but the reality is they couldn't even provide uniforms or rifles

buttons as badges? yep anything they could get hold of

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by harribobs

the majority of reservists and serving soldiers in 1914 were privates




1 Manchester United 38 27 6 5 58 87
2 Chelsea 38 25 10 3 39 85

Hi Harribobs,

I feel like this should be on another forum but I'll say it anyway lol...

I can't argue with the final result but Paul Scholes should have been sent off for a second bookable in the 36th minute and that would have turned the game on its head and given Wigan a chance at that point as you'd have been down to ten men for most of the match with them only needing a single goal to level (granted a hard task for Wigan but not impossible), Chelsea only drew as they knew the jig was up after your second goal went in so the difference between the two teams is minimal, added to that they beat you only the other day in a high pressure match I would be worried about facing them in the champions league final... having said all that I'm actually an ardent Arsenal fan with not much love for chelski but even less for untied

Best of luck in the final,

Luke

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by harribobs

Originally Posted by Luke Halls View Post
Could well be Julian but if it is an '03 badge the guy must have been a "very old contemptable" if still serving as a private in 1914.
Cheers,

Luke[/Q]
the majority of reservists and serving soldiers in 1914 were privates

.... back to badges

Hi HB,

I said that what I did with what you mention in mind, my point was if he originally was serving in 1903 by 1914 he'd have been knocking on some unless he joined as a slip of a lad. Although considering the ages some blokes joined up at he could have been a practicable athlete!

One big point which has just hit me which I think we've all missed 'till now, surely there's no way that badge can be 1903 as the Yorkshire didn't get the eiffel tower badge until 1908 it says in Gaylor so the badge must be 08 at least or post then! Which I suppose date wise could make it fit more with the Territorial forces theory as the same year the VBs went out bearing in mind its getting rather late in the reign of EviiR so one may have thought the likelihood of putting plates on standard order badges ordered by the army would be decreasing. Just a thought.

Luke

[Alan O]

Luke,

I agree fully - in my opinion it is a 1908-15 TF badge. The plaque signifies that it was not a Wd purchase but a private order.

Alan

[Jibba Jabba]

What about the Royal Naval Division.........a war time unit consisting of thousands upon thousands of men........badges with Gaunt plates?

I always thought in the TF and TA you bought your badge direct from the Quatermaster not from the manufacturer? A TF QM may well of bought his badges from Gaunts but whats to stop a regular Battalion QM doing the same?

They could prossibly be badges ordered from the manufacturers for retail outlets such as tailors?

Has anyone seen any circa 1914 advertising from Gaunts for OR badges for sale?

What we can say for a fact is Quatermasters did have boxes of badges they used to give out and they did not pay particular attention to what they gave out. We know this from examining period uniforms which have never been tampered with which show mis-matched collar dogs.

[dragonz18]

JJ,
I am of the same opinion as Alan here. It would seem that plaques are usually only seen on badges purchased outside of the 'normal' Army channels. Navy Dept(with early RND),TA & exported items (contracts of supply to Empire countries,etc) This looks to be where they are most commonly encountered.
These are 'thoughts in progress' here.
Cheers !
Steve

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Jibba Jabba

What about the Royal Naval Division.........a war time unit consisting of thousands upon thousands of men........badges with Gaunt plates?

I always thought in the TF and TA you bought your badge direct from the Quatermaster not from the manufacturer? A TF QM may well of bought his badges from Gaunts but whats to stop a regular Battalion QM doing the same?

They could prossibly be badges ordered from the manufacturers for retail outlets such as tailors?

.

I think you misunderstand the TF procurement. The soldier did not buy his badge from the QM but the TF association bought their kit from suppliers. This differed from the regular procurement process where the WD ordered the kit through the standard supply chains. This is why the TF often wore such unusual uniforms. They bought their own kit to their own design as available.
In this case a TF association would order the same badge from gaunts as the Regulars would get through the WD supply chain but as a private order then Gaunts would mark it with their trademark. No requirement for a trademark for WD orders. Commercial outfitters could indeed order badges from the makers (and officers badges were like this and hence marked).

No Regular QM would buy badges direct from the maker as firstly they would have to pay for them and secondly why would they need to when the WD would send them badges for nothing? The exception is where units decided they wanted an 'unofficial' design of badge such as the Royal Dragoons and then the CO would have to find the cash to buy them. The RND were not part of the Army and hence a special order for badges would be required outside the Army Clothing Dept route which might explain the RND anomoly.

In 1915 the WD took over TF supply.

[KLR]

Many of you still seem to think that when I mentioned a 1903 pattern, it dated from that year !! NO, the pattern would be used for years until superseded by another - some of the original 1890s cap badge patterns/designs were used up to the 1950s, could have been MADE n the 1950s !. I agree I may not know much about Yorks Rgt badges but I can tell you that pattern 4694A/1903 was what the WO were ordering in 1916 (20,000 of them !) . I will check - next time I'm at Kew about what may have happened in 1908. Incidentally I assume 1903 was for the new KC, I've come across loads of references to show that it often took time for a new crown to be officially sealed, I know some units didn't get new QE2 pattern badges until 1956.
I can also tell you that the WO were reponsible for sealing the patterns of the RND battalions, I noticed they were in ACD vol 16, can't remember the date but they don't appear in the big 1916 order that I referred to above.
I think I agree with Alan about "unofficial" orders having Gaunt plaques. The Gaunt archives (or perhaps only some of them) are at the NAM but difficult to sort out.
I would urge anyone to look in their local (county) reference libraries to look up the archives of the local County Terr Assoc. I looked at the W Lancs papers and apart from general minutes etc there were also the minutes of the sub-committee on clothing and equipment - no, not quite as informative as I thought, lots of good general info but virtually nothing on individual badges. I'd be interested to know how other Co Assoc papers compare.

[Jibba Jabba]

A fool can ask more questions than a wise man can answer.......thats a fact so please allow me to ask another question....

If these are indeed private purchase badges why is Gaunt using an old design with lugs rather than slider for a badge which every other manufacturer was assembling with slider?

I was lead to believe soldiers prefered the slider because it was easier to remove from the cap. Would a badge with lugs be a commerical success as a private purchase item?

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Jibba Jabba

A fool can ask more questions than a wise man can answer.......thats a fact so please allow me to ask another question....

If these are indeed private purchase badges why is Gaunt using an old design with lugs rather than slider for a badge which every other manufacturer was assembling with slider?

I was lead to believe soldiers prefered the slider because it was easier to remove from the cap. Would a badge with lugs be a commerical success as a private purchase item?

JJ,

The badges issued to the Manchester pals were lugged at a time when all common infantry badges were slidered, the case is the same with RNDs. Prehaps army specs were for slidered whereas TF ordered badges or those ordered by the Royal Navy or Canadian army were less particular about the attachment method or rather did not stipulate 'vertical shanks' and in fact loops were actually still standard fitting in general badge manufacture by this company which is why we see these badges appearing with lugs in a time epitomised by the slider... just an idea.

Luke

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by KLR

Many of you still seem to think that when I mentioned a 1903 pattern, it dated from that year !! NO, the pattern would be used for years until superseded by another - some of the original 1890s cap badge patterns/designs were used up to the 1950s, could have been MADE n the 1950s !. I agree I may not know much about Yorks Rgt badges but I can tell you that pattern [FONT=Times New Roman]4694A/1903 was what the WO were ordering in 1916 (20,000 of them !)

Hi Julian,

I have read what I've quoted above a couple of times so if I get this wrong I apologise as I've been revising solidly all day and have conservation genetics lectures floating around my head. I take your meaning that the badge could be any time from '03 but... according to Gaylor the Green Howards worn until 1908 a badge with a circular rose wreath encompassing the Dannebrog and coronet with a top scroll within the wreath reading 'the princess of wales' own' and a bottom scroll reading 'yorkshire' (see attached image). As this badge has no reference to the UK monarch it would not need to be changed immediately after Victoria's death. I just found it unusual that your army records date the badge as being sealed around 1903 which is clearly 5 years earlier than it should have been according to Gaylor. As there are other irregularities in Gaylor you may have stumbled onto something here and the Yorks' badge may have changed a lot earlier than previously thought making the first pattern more or less exclusively Victorian in date.

If I'm barking up the wrong tree from my fatigued brain please forgive me

Luke