Lincolnshire Regiment - Rocking Horse Pattern

[Jibba Jabba]

Known in collecting circles as the 'rocking horse' pattern precious little is known about this badge. Even with badge collecting John from Nottingham's knowledge, he saw fit to approach me with the question "what period is this?" and sadly I couldnt tell him.

This badge was actually found with some medals to a WW1 officer who started his career in the 3rd Battalion which was a reserve Battalion for the 1st and 2nd. What is interesting is the badge does show traces of bronzing in the recesses.

Sadly I cannot confirm the badge belonged to this officer for certain since the collection of items had since passed through the hands of one other collector as well as a dealer before reaching its final destination.

I can indeed confirm this design of badge was indeed worn by officer in around 1903-04. Now I know that is big news to some of you guys here because none of the experts say so, but I do have the photographic evidence to prove it. Just give me a few minutes and I`ll be back with proof.

I`m punting this one out to the forum............

[Jibba Jabba]

Just to prove I wasnt talking jibba jabba, here is evidence. I dont believe you have to be a uniform expert to establish the period, definetly pre 1908. Perhaps this is a lugged badge?

[Peter Brydon]

Interestingly the post 1926 Kings Liverpool Regt cap badge is known as the "Rocking horse" badge

P.B.

[Jibba Jabba]

Thats just the collectors name for it mate, not a name with any history behind it like the Liverpools.

The only other tip bit of information I have is that this badge has never been reproduced. I know that John did have one in his collection but I would like to see more examples from the collections of the forum if possible. An example retaining an original bronze finish would make my day, if they did indeed have bronze finishes!?!

I`m open to all comments, thoughts, gestimations and general opinions.

[Alan O]

Am I missing something but how does the badge shown differ from the standard ORs badge? I have a blank scroll lugged TF one but this is a normal one?

Alan

[Jibba Jabba]

Hi Alan, sorry I didnt explain. I'm assuming you have another example with you to compare. The main difference is the head of the sphinx, note the height of the head from the body. Also examine the base scroll and compare the font and size of the lettering. The name rocking horse is a description which refers to the shape of the head.

Here is the common badge for comparison:

When I say common, I mean it with no disrespect the other badges are well worth a thread of their own, with at least 5 variations to collect!

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Jibba Jabba

Hi Alan, sorry I didnt explain. I'm assuming you have another example with you to compare. The main difference is the head of the sphinx, note the height of the head from the body. Also examine the base scroll and compare the font and size of the lettering. The name rocking horse is a description which refers to the shape of the head.

Is it not just a makers variation from a slightly different die of a standard OR's badge?

Luke

[Jibba Jabba]

Luke, you could be right but what I would like to know is why no one is finding these in such great quantities as the other types? Also what is that bronze finish visable in the recesses? When was this badge manufactured? Is it an officers badge with a slider?

No one I have ever met has the answers, not even John who was one of the most knowledgable experts in the midlands.

Also look at the period photo, the two officers in the middle. That picture goes against the grain of every badge book ever published! No one can explain?

[Alan O]

JJ,
Are you sure that those 2 chaps are officers - they have the ORs collar rather than a open faced jacket and tie and I can see no cuff ranks? The equipment appears to be leather with 2 vertical shoulder braces. They do look like early 1900s TF uniforms surrounding them. The Lincolnshire 4th and 5th TF Bns wore the blank scroll version shown above but I suppose yours could well be a 3rd Reserve Bn one which was the same pattern as the regular one. I have not seen an all wm version but do have a bi-metal one thta has been nickel plated but I don't think that this is a militia badge but a WW2 or later oddity.

As regards you badge it is an interesting ORs variation but a bimetal slidered badge would not generally be considered to be an Officers badge even with the brown coloured crevices. The length of the slider would suggest WW1 rather than the standrd short WW2 types found on the ones produced by the standard die.

Have you put the photo on the GWF for the uniform enthusiasts to view?

Alan

[Peter Brydon]

JJ,
I wonder who John from Nottingham is . I have been collecting seriously for over 40 years and have either corresponded with ,or met most of the well known collectors in that time. Could you tell us what his surname is please.

Regards

Peter

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Jibba Jabba

Luke, you could be right but what I would like to know is why no one is finding these in such great quantities as the other types? Also what is that bronze finish visable in the recesses? When was this badge manufactured? Is it an officers badge with a slider?

No one I have ever met has the answers, not even John who was one of the most knowledgable experts in the midlands.

Also look at the period photo, the two officers in the middle. That picture goes against the grain of every badge book ever published! No one can explain?

JJ,

It could simply be a manufacturer who made a lot less than most others for contractual reasons or went out of business etc.

The apparent bronzing could be where the badge has been plated in something, lacquered, covered by something in its life time down the garden shed or wherever.

As for the photo I'm no officer expert and my eyes aren't as sharp as they used to be and the picture quality isn't good so cannot comment on that.

If this was an officers badge why is it slidered? For me it is just a lesser common makers variation.

I myself have one of those funky 2 towered KC Suffolk reg conversions where an extra tower has been added and that is still classed as a makers variation so a slightly smaller head and different size lettering to me any way is just another makers variation which can be seen with all infantry of the line badges.

Luke

[Jibba Jabba]

I am pretty sure they are officers for a few reasons. My first assumption is that they are right in the middle of a very large photograph. It seams its always characteristic to put officers in the middle of groups photos at the front. The second is the pattern of equipment. It looks to me like there are two shoulder straps attached to a belt characterstic of the rig used by only officers of this period. Concerning the uniform I am lead to believe that officers of the Guerilla War in South Africa did not wear distinguishing field uniforms to make themselves less tempting Boer sniper targets who has a nack of killing officers and causing panic in British regiments.

As for John I wish he was a member of the forum. He simply put, knows everything that needs to be known on the subject of badges. He was famous in the city of Nottingham, little chap bald head, just passing middle age frequent tea maker in all the shops on a Saturday afternoon and good friend of Mr Golding. Sorry I dont know his second name, thought it was rude to ask and I dont even know if hes still alive, but trust me a great many people know him and the greatest single source of badge knowledge Ive ever known.

I would suggest you speak with Mr Golding and get him to think back to the old days of the Nottingham Arms fair.

[Sonofacqms]

This is possibly one of the most confusing threads I have read, the badge starts off as an other ranks cap badge with slider, brown staining in the recesses is thought to be bronzing. Photograph shows group of servicemen, two wearing Lincolnshire cap badges. Whether the badges worn are the "Rocking Horse" variety or not I could not see.
The term badge "could be re-lugged" I think somewhere is mentioned and a mysterious badge expert needs to be consulted only adds to the intrigue. . !

[dak580]

JJ

Have to agree with Alan they look like OR’s

This shows the difference between Officers and OR’s tunics

http://www.clash-of-steel.co.uk/gall...age_number=138

This shows the 03 pattern leather equipment which it looks like your men are wearing

http://www.hmhms.org.uk/pics/weappix/weap6.htm

Best pictures I could find on the net

John

[KLR]

JJ,
The Lincolnshire Regiment Other Ranks bimetal cap badge was ACD pattern no 4476 sealed in 1897. This pattern was worn until it became the Royal Lincs in ??1940s.

That said, there must have been different variations made from different dies by different manufacturers.

If you want a comparison, my research into King's cap badges has revealed a wide variety of different variations / I call them "types"
pattern 4362A/1896 - at least 9 types
pattern 10042/1926 - at least 7 types
pattern 14312/1950 - at least 3 types.

These are just OBVERSE differences, if you add the various manufacturing differences on the REVERSE (eg lugs / sliders / tags / braze holes etc) then there are considerably more variations.

I HAVE seen the sealed patterns of 1896 and 1926 (but not [yet] 1950) so I know there are variations.

Any study of badges (or anything else) falls into two parts, firstly the objects themselves and the varieties seen by numerous collectors etc, secondly the documentary sources which will indicate date pattern etc etc. I spend my professional time looking at objects that are considerably older. If you study "modern" items from the 19th and 20th centuries you have the added advantage of surviving documentary records etc.

Julian