WW1 or WW2 Rising Sun Badge ?

[wig]

Hi folks,
I'm an Aussie living in Texas...
The other day here I scored a Rising Sun badge for 99 cents !
I don't have the knowledge that you good peoples have here...
Maybe someone could help ?
I'm wondering which conflict it would belong to ? (WW1 or WW2)
Unfortunately there's no manufacturer's markings on it.
As you can see by the pics, it still has the black oxidized finish.
Where it's rubbed off on the front, to the naked eye the spots appearing look brownish, i.e. copper ?
Any input would be most appreciated.
Cheers
Wig

[badgecollector]

Hi wig
Firstly, if it’s a collar, I would be interested to know also from the Aussie experts how you can tell the difference between ww1 and ww2 collar badges.
Unless maker marked, but even then it’s hard to tell, it’s almost impossible to tell. The design didn’t change.
If a hat badge, there are subtle differences and it’s more a feel than a specific point. Generally, the A of Australia in the scroll is closer to the edge on ww1 badges, and generally better made. Many blackened ww2 badges have an almost blue tinge to them if in near mint condition. Is this making any sense?
If I had to guess, I would say yours is ww2
Good luck
BC

[Chrisr]

Hi Wig,

Hard to tell. They were the same badge, made by a variety of different makers. Any advice would simply be a guess.

Cheers
Chris

[Donny B.]

I would refer you back to Cossum's "The Rising Sun" book where, though he illustrates a considerable number of different General Service collar badges, unlike his hat badges he does not differentiate them in to WW1 or WW2 issue.

Donny B.

[wig]

Hi BC,
Thanks for your reply...
Your point about the 'A' on Australia being to the edge of the scroll for WW1 badges is a great tip. I guess it's a WW2 badge...I've been after a WW1 badge.
But...I can't complain, finding one here in the US for 99 cents is a pretty good result !
Again, thanks for your help mate.
Cheers
Wig

[wig]

Hi Chris,
Thanks mate...I'm new to this, so yeah, I haven't got a clue !
The reply from BC above yours, suggests if the 'A' in Australia is on the edge of the scroll it's a WW1 badge ?
Cheers
Wig

[wig]

Hi Donny B,
Thanks for the heads up about that book, I'll check it out.
Much appreciated.
Cheers
Wig

[Chrisr]

Originally Posted by wig

Hi Chris,
Thanks mate...I'm new to this, so yeah, I haven't got a clue !
The reply from BC above yours, suggests if the 'A' in Australia is on the edge of the scroll it's a WW1 badge ?
Cheers
Wig

Hi Wig,

I hadn't heard that before. Interresting point, although it would be good to know the source that attributes the A on the edge of the scroll to a WW1 badge.

The badge was worn from about 1903 to 1946. There were quite a number of badge makers, and they each had their own dies. In all about a million or more were produced. It's really hard to tell when a badge was actually made.

My own experience is the really black ones (oxidised) tend to be a later version. My father's (WW2) is very black, rather than a coppery colour underneath.

Regards
Chris

[wig]

Hi there Chris,
One thing I've noticed...
With the crown on the badges...some have the two holes, and others the crown is solid like the rest of the badge.
Could that mean a difference between being a WW1 or WW2 badge ?
I've seen WW1 slider badges, and the crowns are solid.
Or, as you'd mentioned would that just be a manufacturer's style of casting ?
Cheers
Wig

[JerryBB]

My WWI example has the solid crown and the WWII types I own have voided crowns.

Regards,

Jerry

[badgecollector]

Originally Posted by Chrisr

Hi Wig,

I hadn't heard that before. Interresting point, although it would be good to know the source that attributes the A on the edge of the scroll to a WW1 badge.

Chris

hi chris
there is no hard and fast rule to dating the rising sun badges (other than those with sliders and some makers names) but from 40yrs of collecting them you get a feel for them and i have noticed certain subtle variations that i identify either a certain manufacturer or period.

there is no source of attribution regarding the A being closer to the edge of the scroll on WW1 badges, just something i have noticed. sure, not 100% accurate, but its just something i use to help date them.

if you save the pic attached and zoom in, you will see the top 2 lines of badges (which are pre 1920s) have the A closer to the edge than the bottom 2 lines which are post 1920s.

go and have a look at yours and let us know what you find
bc

[Chrisr]

Hi BC,

Thank you for that. It is an interesting observation, which I hadn't noticed in my 50+ years of collecting. Looking at mine, I see there are differences in the badges - some have the A as you have mentioned, most haven't. The problem is I couldn't say for sure when any of them were made other than:

1 - the top right hand badge in your photo, which I have as a 1903-12 Officers. Mine is stamped J R Gaunt and Son Ltd London and has the A close to the end of the scroll, altough Cossum's Australian Army Badges 'The Rising Sun' (RS6) doesn't. He says they were made in London and Melbourne;

2- the three types of Australian Instructional Corps, which are pre- 1939, and probably inter-war period, They don't have the A close to the end of the scroll; and

3 - the Australian Commonwealth Military Forces with a slider, both Tiptaft and unmarked which are probably WW1 and UK made. I also have a Tiptaft B'ham lugged badge the same as the top right corner in your photo. They all have the A close to the end of the scroll, which supports your observation.

I am wondering if the UK made badges all had the A closer to the end of the scroll. My Tiptaft, unmarked sliders and Gaunt badges all do.

Looking through Cossum Australian Army Badges 'The Rising Sun' I note he lists a couple as 'WW1' and 'WW1 or WW2' issue that do not have the A close to the end of the scroll (RS134 and RS131). However, I am not sure how he determined them as WW1 issue.

I also have KC and QC Australian Military Forces Rising Suns (post 1948) which have the A closer to the end of the scroll, same as the one at the lower right corner in your photo.

Except for the 1903-12 badge (top left hand) do you have provenance for remainder of the two top lines of badge as being pre-1920's?

My point is there were a lot of badge makers who produced the Rising Sun Australian Commonwealth Military Forces version from different dies, and the design of the badge didn't change over a period of 40+ years.

While I note your observation of the A near the end of the scroll, and you may well be correct, but other than the points I made above, hallmarked silver badges and certain makers marks, I believe there is no sure way of determining when an Australian Commonwealth Military Forces Rising Sun badge was actually manufactured. IMO, other than the Tiptaft badges, the only way of knowing whether it was WW1 or WW2 would be if it was picked up from a battlefield or we have certain provenance from someone who wore it.

Perhaps a project on makers marks on Rising Sun badges might give us a lead, although most Rising Sun badges don't have them.

best wishes
Chris

[Chrisr]

Originally Posted by wig

With the crown on the badges...some have the two holes, and others the crown is solid like the rest of the badge.
Could that mean a difference between being a WW1 or WW2 badge ?
I've seen WW1 slider badges, and the crowns are solid.

Hi Wig,

This might be so but I am not convinced non-voided and voided crowns mark them as WW1 or WW2 badges respectively. I think there are variations.

I have an unmarked slider that has a voided crown, and Cossum has the same badge as a Unidentified British maker WW1 badge (RS133). He also has two modified Rising Sun badges (attached numbers and Australia shoulder title underneath) (RS43 and RS44) as WW1 and both have voided crowns. RS43 also has a different pattern of bayonet points (sun rays), so it might be a specially made badge. He has two Rising Suns side by side (RS135 and RS 136) as WW1 - one has a non-voided crown and the other has a voided crown. I don't know how he determined them to be WW1. On page 29 he has two Australian Nursing Service sterling silver badges (both with Australian Commonwealth Military Forces scrolls) - the one he lists as WW1 British made (RS111) has a voided crown, while the other he lists as WW2 Australian made (RS111A) has a non-voided crown.

My Australian Instruction Corps (inter-war) badges have non-voided crowns, and Cossum's Australian Instructional Corps 1930 -1942 badges (RS32 and RS33) are non voided crowns. My 1903-12 badge has a voided crown, although it is officer quality with the gilt crown on a red enamel background.

I think we need detailed research based on pattern records rather than supposition to determine fact from fiction.

There is a lot of supposition regarding badges, and one needs to be careful. For example, I have a version of the RND Nelson badge that "experts" had long said was a fake produced in the early 1970's. I purchased mine in 1961, as part of a set of five including some shoulder titles, from an elderly gentleman who had collected them in the 1920's or 1930's. The satin underneath the badges was very dark purple, while the satin around the badges had faded badly to a very pale colour. All the other badges in the set were agreed RND originals when I put them up on the forum. Luckily another forum member retrieved his Nelson 'fake' from the duds bin on reading the thread.

Regards
Chris

[wig]

Chris, Jerry, and BC,
Thanks so much for all your input...
I've got a VERY limited knowledge about this subject.
In my travels I've picked up a few badges, and I was interested to confirm if they were WW1 or WW2...
You guys have 'enlightened' me into the can of worms that dating a Rising Sun badge can be !
One thing I've learnt, the badges I have are (I hope) pre 1949
Again, thanks for all your input fellas, much appreciated.
Cheers
Wig

[badgecollector]

Hi Chris,

1- I have Jeff’s book but I’m not sure even Jeff new if the badges he showed were WW1or 2. There are several mistakes not just in this book but in all of his books (no disrespect to Jeff, great books, but even he acknowledges the mistakes).


2- the three types of Australian Instructional Corps, which are pre- 1939, and probably inter-war period, They don't have the A close to the end of the scroll; (that’s because there not pre early1920s so not ww1 period)

3 - The Australian Commonwealth Military Forces with a slider, both Tiptaft and unmarked which are probably WW1 and UK made. (Definitely WW1 as the sliders were only worn in WW1 and I don’t believe tiptaft or any other UK manufacturer made any for WW2) I also have a Tiptaft B'ham lugged badge the same as the top right corner in your photo. They all have the A close to the end of the scroll, which supports your observation.

I am wondering if the UK made badges all had the A closer to the end of the scroll. My Tiptaft, unmarked sliders and Gaunt badges all do. (Yes I believe so)

Looking through Cossum Australian Army Badges 'The Rising Sun' I note he lists a couple as 'WW1' and 'WW1 or WW2' issue that do not have the A close to the end of the scroll (RS134 and RS131). However, I am not sure how he determined them as WW1 issue. (as I said in my previous post, it is not an exact determinant, but I don’t think I have ever seen any A close to the end of the scroll on ww2 or post badges)

I also have KC and QC Australian Military Forces Rising Suns (post 1948) which have the A closer to the end of the scroll, same as the one at the lower right corner in your photo. (Yes, maybe, but these are easy to date as the title in the scroll changes and leaves out the word COMMONWEALTH)

Except for the 1903-12 badge (top left hand) do you have provenance for remainder of the two top lines of badge as being pre-1920's? (No)

My point is there were a lot of badge makers who produced the Rising Sun Australian Commonwealth Military Forces version from different dies, and the design of the badge didn't change over a period of 40+ years. (Correct, below is an incomplete list of manufacturers ww1&2)

While I note your observation of the A near the end of the scroll, and you may well be correct, but other than the points I made above, hallmarked silver badges and certain makers marks, I believe there is no sure way of determining when an Australian Commonwealth Military Forces Rising Sun badge was actually manufactured. IMO, other than the Tiptaft badges, the only way of knowing whether it was WW1 or WW2 would be if it was picked up from a battlefield or we have certain provenance from someone who wore it. (All UK made badges are WW1, all sliders, maker marked or not are WW1, k g Luke made badges weren’t made until post 1920ish. along with some of the other manufacturers)


Here's a list of rising sun badge makers from Rick Greberts book "The Australian army slouch hat and rising sun badge"

- J (? Jennings) and Co., London, England
- J.R Gaunt and Son Limited, London and Birmingham, England
- Tiptaft and Son Ltd, Birmingham, England
- General Plastics
- Stokes and Sons, Melbourne, Victoria
- Armor, Sydney, NSW
- Arendson and Co., Melbourne, Victoria
- K.G Luke, Melbourne, Victoria
- Sheridan, Perth, WA
- R. Simpson, Australia
- Decimal Tooling
- Flavell, Melbourne, Victoria
- Angus and Coote, Sydney, NSW
- G.A Miller and Son, Sydney, NSW
- Swann and Hudson, Melbourne, Victoria
- Firmin and Sons, London, England
- Uniquip, London, England
- F. Narborough, Birmingham, England
- Smith and Wright, Birmingham, England
- E. Stillwell and Son, London, England

BC