CFA cap badges and CEF Cataloguing

[TRT]

Bill,

Can you elaborate on the comment about the CEF RFA badges being fakes in Coxs book. Are the ones shown in the book all copies or bogus and did the no badges exist?

Thanks

TRT

[Voltigeur]

Bill,if I may. You say that Babin's is the earliest reference on CEF badges ? What about the book "Overseas" by Charles H.Stewart, 1971 and, "Over the Top", by John F. Meek,1971.Do these two pre-date Babin, or came after ? Also,I should point out that Stewart's has a complete list (and pictures of some) numbered artillery badges.
Jo

[Bill A]

CFA numbered battery badges are one of the most complicated, confusing and reproduced areas of CEF badges. Cox was "tricked" by a Canadian contributor when he published his book and most, but not all of the CFA badges were simpley fantasy badges. The existing badges, standard field gun patterns unless noted, were the 36th 46th (unique pattern, field gun on maple leaf), 56th (unique pattern as shown in Cox) 58th (unique pattern as shown in Cox), and several badges in the 60's and 70's series. These were the pattern with the disc on the field gun wheel with the battery number. In addition there are artillery badges for Coburg Heavy Battery, Halifax Seige Battery, 9th Overseas Seige Battery. These and some other badges use the disc on the wheel to identify the unit. Obviously, it is quite easy to add a disc to the wheel and create a "battery badge".
There are several patterns of the field gun badges.

1. A standard field gun with the CANADA instead of the UBIQUE upper scroll
2. A pattern with three maple leaves over the field gun, below the Canada scroll.
3. A field gun with a wreath of maple leaves around the gun, no ribbon below the bottom scroll.
4. A field gun with the wreath around the gun and the ribbon below the bottom scroll.
5. A field gun on a large maple leaf.

One is the plain field gun with the super imposed battery number on the wheel.

Unfortunately, there were reproductions being made of the artillery badges for a long time. Most recently a company near Ottawa was pumping out CFA badges of extemely good quality that were completely bogus. There are other strings about these badges on the forum, in particular the Dracs badge list is posted.

[Bill A]

Jo, Babin's book was published sometime in the 1960's IIRC. His was the basis for the numbering system that we commonly use to identify CEF badges. Meek only catalogued the Infantry and Mounted Rifles, and Stewart did a good job of listing, but it has omissions and errors. Unfortunately, Stewarts images suck, to say the least.

[boots and saddles]

Charles Stewart did put out erratum sheets for the concise linages of the Canadian Army 1855 to 1969, Bill got a point there that way the corrections are passed on by some authority.

[Voltigeur]

Yeah Stewart's is not that great (the pics are a bit small) but, IMO a little better than the hand-drawings in Babin's . Thanks.
Jo

[Peter Brydon]

If I can add something here, a lot of very good quality reproductions appeared many years ago (as Bill has already said ) ,not only of CFA items, but other badges as well ,which appeared to confirm the existance ,and use of ,spurious badges and which gave credence to the ( incorrect ) information contained in some published works.

Duds/restikes/ and Out and out fantasy items seem to have been with us since the hobby began.

P.B.

[mad4thcef]

One point that seems to be over looked is.

When looking at CEF Arty badges it just as important to look at the back of the badge most but not all have Tangs. Especially the numbered batteries.

The tangs on the forgeries are longer than what were on the real deal!
This is one of the sure tell tale signs its a you know what!

I hope this helps

[Bill A]

I thought Jo may have followed up with the list of CFA battery badges from Stewart. In his book, Overseas he shows CFA badges for the following batteries:

1. 36 CFA
2. 46th (atypical pattern)
3. 50 CFA
4. 51 CFA
5. 52 CFA
6. 53 CFA
7. 55 CFA
8. 56 CFA
9. 57 CFA
10. 58 CFA (atypical pattern)
11. 61 CFA
12. 62 CFA
13. 63 CFA
14. 64 CFA
15. 65 CFA
16. 66 CFA
17. 67 U of T CFA (atypical pattern)
18. 68 CFA
19. 69 CFA
20. 70 CFA
21. 71 CFA
22. 72 CFA
23. 73 CFA
24. 74 CFA
25. 75 CFA
26. 76 CFA
27. 77 CFA
28. 78 CFA
29. 79 CFA

Stewart's book was published in 1970, supposedly long before there were reproductions of the artillery badges. This list should be combined with the "good" Cox list.

[Voltigeur]

Sorry Bill, I have been under the weather these last few days. I thought about putting the numbers up, can't find the pics for 78 and 79. The Stewart's book that I have doesn't have an erratum sheet.

Jo

[Artynut]

Well, that series of posts was interesting! I have a number of the numbered CFA badges picked up over the last 20 years but got scared off a couple of years ago when I found a whole load had just been made here in Canada. The hobby has turned sour for me to the point that I'm going more for buttons now. I cannot as yet figure out how to add pictures of the quality I've seen on this site. Perhaps I should ask 54Bty how, He's got some super pics.

[LLWill]

Taking and posting images is not the hard. Drop me a line - maybe I can help

[jim a]

I use the Charlton standard catalgue of First World War Canadian Corps Badges for my references.... how do the artillery badges illustrated stack up as to being originals... any problems with this book or the Infantry badge book by the same author W K Cross... thanks Jim

[manchesters]

Hello,

As a new member, but a very long in the tooth badge collector, I would like to find out if we have now in 2014, a definative list of the CEF numbered Artillery cap badges of the Field Gun variety that are known to have existed in WW1.

I have Cox and I have Charlton and dont really know what to think of the badges in there based on this excellent thread and others like it.

It would be a great benefit to me and I am sure others if someone had compiled such a list from the varied posts over the years on this forum.

It is a side theme of mine to collect Kings Crown Commonwealth Field Gun badges from around the old British Empire.

regards

[LLWill]

I seem to recall reading an article very recently in this forum (can't find it at the moment) about Eaton's and the badges they were producing. I seem to remember the Arty badges being comment on in this article??? So the majority of the Arty Badges would be unofficial/sweet-heart(possibly)/unit kit shop like badges. POSSIBLY!!!!!
Kipling/King book on badges has a number of the Arty badge images - this book is from the mid 90's so-----!
The Badge collection at RCMI Toronto has a LOT!! of the Arty badges. The collection can be reliably dated from the 20's. When I last saw the collection I was focused on their SIGNAL badges so I did not take any pictures of the Arty stuff (stupid!!). Even if the Arty portion of that collection can be proven to date from the 20's and earlier, it still does not explain all of the Bty Badges. There are directives (Arty) stating that the only badge approved for wear is the "Gun" badge.
Having said all of this?????? I don't know and I have never found "facts" giving a good answer to this.