Riots and use of the Armed Forces

[LONGSHANKS]

One does long for the day's of Botany Bay and those one way tickets on a convict transport. Pity we lost that Empire, there would have been somewhere that needed additional labour.....

I take your point their Jibba Jabba, but I can say this. My family back in the UK came from the same places where I hear in the news this morning in Birmingham are rioting and looting. My grandmother a single parent from 1947 onwards was "means tested" for the small assistance she did get with three children. I didn't see my uncles or my mother looting because of a deprived childhood, through the 40's and 50's and into the 60's. And remember, after the war there was true depravation.

I do believe the "lack of respect" generation you have there, is due to the previous three term government mentality of just giving to placate the masses what ever they want (even if the country couldn't afford it).
From what I am told from friends and family back home and what I see, there really isn't a need to work there anymore.

The top line job's in manufacturing these youths think they are owed, aren't here; it's true. But there are job's; just they think it's below them to do them. If you were to offer them professional re-education in area's that are needed, like the City And Guilds back in the 60's (my father took this course), they wouldn't do it.

Basically, they wouldn't work a day in their lives if they could help it, especially when there is extensive handouts from social services. This is simple wolf pack looting and vandalism. They are embarrassing the true un-employed, who are looking for work. They have "kidnapping" the issue of lack of work, to as you mentioned - "Feather their own nest" (and that's probably the one provided by social services anyway)

[Phil2M]

Couldnt agree more simon.

[LONGSHANKS]

Hi Phil, I don't want to sound like "are there no prison's, are there no workhouse's", but it does annoy me when the true deprived are tarred with this.
99% of the BRITISH, plod and get on with it and do their best, like all the generations of that green and pleasant land.

The same happens over here. The one's who need help are slandered due to the one's who abuse this help. This issue at present in the UK and I believe soon coming a street corner in the US, will be with us for many years. The fear factor of state control should be brought to bare.....where are those British CRS when you need them....

Simon.

P.S., just wanted to say I love these threads. Breaks up the day and a break from the bdge obsession...

[Phil2M]

Just heard that many of the arrested that are in court have got jobs, including one that works in a primary school. Not so deprived then.

Phil

[Jibba Jabba]

Do you know what angers me the most Simon? Its the fact that are community groups working in those areas of London to solve the social and economic problems. They are working on a pittance of a budget. Why is that?

[Charlie585]

Hi Simon,

It seems after all that we do agree on the salient points of the discussion here.

The points you make are entirely valid in my estimation which is why I was so saddened previously by the discussion concerning the cuts to our armed forces budget in favour of financing the lifestyles of those that you mention. Maybe we misunderstood each other before?

Jibba Jabba,

Sadly our once thriving industrial capability is no longer, this can be put down in part to the natural order of things “progress” but let us not forget that due to the stranglehold that the unions had on British industry in the seventies, we became uncompetitive and those industries are now provided by other countries who have grasped the nettle. This is what has led in my opinion to the lack of skills, hope and future prospects for much of our youth.

To add insult to injury, the current generation have grown up in a society where it has not been beneficial to work for many. The welfare state has grown out of all proportion to its original intended purpose and in this climate of welfare dependency many see a comprehensive benefits package as a god given right.

They have no concept of the fact that we can only take out what has been put in and therefore don’t appreciate the need for the current austerity measures which include cuts to benefits as well as education and public services.

They are not alone as there are also legions of state employees that have ridden the gravy train also up in arms at the threat to their gold plated pensions who again don’t appreciate that there isn’t a bottomless pit of money. Never mind, as long as they are alright!

I honestly don’t know what the answer to all this is or where it will end. I don’t envy the job of those whose task it is to sort it. I feel though that the rot has been set for far too long and although I genuinely wish for the contrary, I fear that what we are seeing now is merely the tip of the iceberg and an indication of an unstable and uncertain future for our society.

There is a need to have these matters discussed and for all points of view to be heard, though expect that the majority of members will feel that this is not the place to do it.

They are probably right so its back to the badge addiction for me before I ruffle too many feathers, head in the sand where it belongs!

Ry

[David Tremain]

I see the police are now going to use water cannon and have a trained squad (50 men!) who are allowed to use baton rounds (rubber bullets). Hardly enough. What about tear gas?

Talking of the CRS, my wife and I were in Paris in 1992 visiting the Musee Rodin which is opposite the French Ministry of Agriculture. The French farmers were demonstrating about EU subsidies and the CRS were lining up to go into action. Sure enough, when we came out of the museum we had to go out through a side gate as the rioting had started. We high-tailed it down the road as the tear gas started to fly, not wanting to get involved. I well remember the Paris riots of 1968 on TV where the CRS were clubbing people over the head just for being there. They regularly patrol Charles de Gaulle airport and elsewhere and a more evil-looking bunch I've yet to see. Maybe in the interests of the entente cordiale Scotland Yard could borrow a few to sort out the b****y awful mess London is in.

I would hate for Britain to have to resort to bringing in the Army (Military Aid to the Civil Power), although I'm sure the Paras would love to get stuck in. As a quote from a book about the Falklands War said of them: "We're not paid to p**s about." I don't hear any talk of "snatch squads" like the Army used in N.Ireland and elsewhere.

All in all, a sorry state of affairs. The Vancouver riot over the Stanley Cup (hockey for those of you not in Canada or the USA) pales by comparison. David

[LONGSHANKS]

No Ry, we are both on the same page. My reference to putting the Money back into the UK system; was purely that. My reference to supply it to these individuals waiting for a flat screen to walk by was not made. My reference was to guarantee a system of services that are warranted to those who have WORKED to supply it. To be told you have to work longer beyond 65 and then wait at 70 for a medical procedure is not on.

Anyway, as before this can go round and round. Shame because some members may not like the occasional brain stretcher of a thread, I do; if I didn't I wouldn't open the link.

Regards as always Ry

Simon.

P.S. I take your point Jib, but the only social worker or community worker that came to my grandmothers door was someone to tell her to sell the radio before she could get some help ( I suppose telling them to sell the flat screen won't go down to well). But different time's and definitely a greater generation.

[Faugh-A-Ballagh]

On the original topic, a lot of commentators have mad a lot of noise about mistakes the Army made in Northern Ireland when dealing with public order incidents eg Bloody Sunday.
They seem to be ignorant of the fact that the Army learned a lot of lessons there, and laterally were trained to an exceptionally high standard of public order, and very restrained when deployed in such situations.
I sincerely hope we don't see troops being deployed, but in that unlikely event, I know that they will be very good at whatever they will be asked to do.
As with everything else in recent times, they will be a credit to their units.

John

[Jibba Jabba]

The way to resolve this is to offer a fair working wage that motivates the individual to get off the benefits. This has been achieved in Germany, who as a matter of fact have just been awarded a large UK railway contract despite the fact their engineering skills in that particular area are unproven! Its all down to paper work so I've been told

Sweden in comparison pays far more money to its unemployed than England. As it stands dole money is around £60 pounds per week per person in the UK. On the Swedish system an immigrant with no previous work experience in the country receives £150. If the person making the claim has worked in the country, that money goes up in increments!

Charlie, as you say other countries have grasped the nettle, so why haven't we? Why have we not rebuilt? We used to be the greatest manufacturing nation in the world. We were also had a service industry and now that has gone abroad too! Why, because we are no longer "economically viable"

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by Faugh-A-Ballagh

On the original topic, a lot of commentators have mad a lot of noise about mistakes the Army made in Northern Ireland when dealing with public order incidents eg Bloody Sunday.
They seem to be ignorant of the fact that the Army learned a lot of lessons there, and laterally were trained to an exceptionally high standard of public order, and very restrained when deployed in such situations.
I sincerely hope we don't see troops being deployed, but in that unlikely event, I know that they will be very good at whatever they will be asked to do.
As with everything else in recent times, they will be a credit to their units.

John

Well said John,

I can vouch for the public order training that the army used to receive during the time of the troubles in Northern Ireland and also for the professionalism that they display in all the roles that they are asked to perform.

I don't know if that training continues , if not maybe it should, rather than run the risk of a repeat of the mistakes of the early days in NI due to a lapse in the skills and experience required.

There may come a time when there is no option but to deploy troops on to the streets but if it ever comes to it, it will be a sad day.

Regards

Ry

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by Jibba Jabba

The "free money" as its called, or as some of my former clients used to call it; "getting paid" I do not believe is a problem. When this free money was removed from the equation in the United States there was a crime wave because people simply couldn't afford to live.

The way to resolve this is to offer a fair working wage that motivates the individual to get off the benefits. This has been achieved in Germany, who as a matter of fact have just been awarded a large UK railway contract despite the fact their engineering skills in that particular area are unproven! Its all down to paper work so I've been told

Sweden in comparison pays far more money to its unemployed than England. As it stands dole money is around £60 pounds per week per person in the UK. On the Swedish system an immigrant with no previous work experience in the country receives £150. If the person making the claim has worked in the country, that money goes up in increments!

Charlie, as you say other countries have grasped the nettle, so why haven't we? Why have we not rebuilt? We used to be the greatest manufacturing nation in the world. We were also had a service industry and now that has gone abroad too! Why, because we are no longer "economically viable"

Past Governments made the country the way it is. It is for them to rectify it, not blame the people.

That's enough from me. I'm just sick to the back teeth of the media not reporting the underlying problems that have been the root cause of these events.

Jibba Jabba,

On your first point on the reduction of benefits, I think you have answered your own question "we are no longer "economically viable" ".

As for our industry I agree the same can be said. It is a long term problem that has brought us to this unfortunate but probably inevitable position.

That said there are current Government initiatives that aim to tackle some of the issues, such as. Skills conditionality, this is for people of all ages on benefits to give them the opportunity to retrain or upskill. Also there is a large investment in the 14 to 19 year old sector (NEETs) with regard to job training and employability skills. A high Government priority is also to provide apprenticeship places for 16 to 24 year olds. A lot of this money comes from the European Social Fund whose training providers work closely with local authorities in order to target hotspots of youth unemployment.

The argument that these rioters are totally without hope as stated by many elsewhere recently doesn't hold water. Those with genuine aspirations do have the tools in place to better themselves and pull themselves out of poverty by hard work and dedication.


Besides all this, it would seem that many of those involved in recent events are in fact people with jobs and normal lives.

I am changing my view of these Riots, it is not Rioting. It is actually better described as opportunist Looting. Any sympathy or compassion that might have been understandable in some misguided quarters is I'm afraid no longer acceptable. The only compassion I can express is aimed at those who have lost their businesses and livelihoods.

There is no condoning this behaviour, we should throw the book at them in order to provide a deterent while we still can.