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  #16  
Old 24-01-14, 07:18 PM
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Hello Martin,
Well you answered my question - I didn't know that Gaunt used the Birmingham mark at that date and I am very grateful to have - as always - learnt something new ! Yes I'm well aware of WO 359/21 which has lots of interesting information about KLR Vol Bns - forgive me if I didn't note the Leics material !
The VBs and initially the TF Bns all had privately made insignia - up to 1915 when the WO provided funding. There is clearly a variety of brass and WM badges - I'm currently puzzling over a brass / GM 6VB KLR which I'm certain is very genuine and which I now realise - you reminded me - that it could be pre 1901.
I associate 'blades' with officer's badges, not often used on S&G but predominantly on bronze OSDs.
There is something in the RACD ledgers (WO 359) about VB battle honours in 1905 - I'll go through my notes later. Anyway, I'm glad you're keeping up the good work Ticker - regrettably I don't have as much time these days.
J
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  #17  
Old 24-01-14, 07:50 PM
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Default Leicesters 1st Vol. Battn Cap Badges

Hi Julian

As a follow on from my previous posting, Dean has now kindly sent me the reference to the 1st Vol. Battn of the Leicesters adopting the tiger cap badge of the regulars in 1902. It is actually from Colin Churchill’s History of the British Army Infantry Collar Badge, p. 88, and not from one of Ray Westlake’s books as he first thought. Regarding the earlier three lions design, Churchill says:

Quote:
“The battalion now submitted a new design through Messrs J & B Pearse & Co., 28, Hart Street, Covent Garden, London. The three lions or leopards of England differenced with the Mark of Cadency of the eldest son of the Sovereign, enclosed with a near circle of laurels. The design was approved, adopted and extracted, 30th January 1885.”
This would not have included the three lions cap badge without the laurel wreath, as this was for the Field Service Cap which the Battalion would have only adopted sometime in the 1890s. As to the changes in 1902, Churchill has:

Quote:
“The [three lions] badge became the centre piece for all badges worn by the 1st Volunteer Battalion until 1902. Why the battalion did not adopt the badge of the parent Battalions is not known. In 1902, perhaps as a result of a change of Crown and the advent of Service Dress, the battalion did adopt the Royal Tiger as their central device”
Thanks to your research, of course, we now know it was because of the War Office directive of 22nd May 1901 that the volunteer battalions were allowed to wear similar badges to the regulars of their parent regiments. It is also not the case that the 1st Vol. Battn of the Leicesters took to Service Dress in 1902, rather, according to research by Glenn Steppler, which was published in his excellent book Britons, To Arms!: The Story of the British Volunteer Soldier, p. 110, they only adopted it in 1906.

Sorry to hear you don’t have much time for research at the moment, but this is something I can quite empathise with. Having said that I’m glad to know you’ve found things here of interest, and hope the above will be equally so. You might also like to look at something John Mulcahy posted up to this thread about an article entitled ‘Badges of Public School Corps’, which was in Public School Magazine, Vol. VIII, 1901, pp. 381-389. It has in it about how the Uppingham School Rifle Corps were wearing the three lions badges of the Leicestershire 1st Vol. Battn at that time, which would again support the idea that the Leicesters’ Volunteers only adopted the tiger as their cap badge in 1902.

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

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  #18  
Old 24-01-14, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley View Post

I know that it was only from 1901 onwards that volunteer battalions were allowed to wear the cap badges of their parent regiments (see Julian’s posting here ),
Nice to see you posting again Martin.

I have a nickel Royal Fusiliers badge, large size but with a Victorian crown. Surely this would pre-date the AO as Queen Victoria died in January 1901?

Keith
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  #19  
Old 24-01-14, 08:41 PM
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Martin and Julian my thanks for the continued research and insights into the badges of the 1st VB Leicestershire Regiment.

I note from private correspondence and images of some of his badges from Bob (NCC) that the a Officers silver 1st VB collars with Royal Tiger within laurel wreath with a bottom scroll bearing 1st VB Leicestershire as noted in Churchill on page 88 as being adopted post 1902 but as per Martin's post it is post-1906 also bear the Gaunt Birmingham mark.

Regards Dean
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  #20  
Old 24-01-14, 09:00 PM
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Default Royal Fusiliers’ nickel badge query

Hello Keith

It’s good to be back, though as ever I don’t know how long this stint will last! I’m certainly not an expert on volunteer badges per se, and don’t know anything about the badges of the Royal Fusiliers, so I’m afraid I can’t help you with your question. My assertion about the 1901 date was based on Julian’s research, and his reference to the War Office directive dated 22nd May 1901; for which I gave the link to his posting about this. If he could, of course, it might be good if Julian were able to post up the actual wording of the directive? Just so we can see exactly what it does say about volunteer battalions being allowed to have badges like that of their parent regiments, though in white metal and without the honours. As you’ll see from my latest posting above, this does seem to fit for the Leicestershire 1st Vol. Battn and their adoption of a version of the regulars’ tiger cap badge. But maybe some volunteer battalions had already applied to use badges like their parent regiments before the 1901 directive?? As I say, I’m afraid I don’t know, so can’t help you with the date of your Royal Fusiliers’ nickel badge.

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 25-01-14 at 08:01 PM.
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  #21  
Old 25-01-14, 07:50 PM
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Default ‘1st V.B. Leicestershire’ collar badges

Hi Dean

I take your point that the OSD Leicesters volunteers’ collar badge that Churchill refers to is unlikely to have been in wear from 1902 onwards, as he says, given what Steppler says about the 1st Vol. Battn only adopting Service Dress in 1906. For reference this is what it says in Britons, To Arms!, p. 110, on the matter:

Quote:
“The [South Africa] war introduced the use of khaki coloured clothing to the Volunteers, and in 1906 the new ‘khaki' service dress was taken into wear by the 1st Volunteer Battalion, their cyclists having by then already made use of the dull hues of modern war for some time.”
Having said that, I don’t think this has to mean that the Officers’ silver collars like their OSD ones could not have come in earlier, and they may well date from around 1902; which is when the 1st Vol. Battn seem to have adopted the tiger cap badge. Though I do realise that the scroll under these collars is the same as on the cap badges with the ‘South Africa 1900.02’ top scroll, in that they also say ‘1st V.B. Leicestershire’ on them, and that they also have the same ‘J.R.Gaunt & Son Ltd Birm’ back mark, which together might perhaps indicate a date later than 1902 for the collars. Sadly WO 359/21, the Pattern book of 108 designs of badges for Volunteer Regiments, that John looked at, only covers the period 1883-1899. But there may still be something at the United Kingdom’s National Archives that could confirm dates for tiger collars and cap badges for the 1st Vol. Battn of the Leicesters, and if I track it down I’ll be sure to let you know about it.

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 27-01-14 at 12:57 PM.
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  #22  
Old 26-01-14, 08:56 PM
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This is what I had copied out regarding the 1901 directive, but doesn't seem to be verbatim.

359/10, 306 Volunteers Badges & Honours, V/ 1/17/ 221, 22.5.1901
The A.G. decided on, 16.5.1901 that the question of giving honours on account of service in South Africa must stand over until the war is ended.
Also decided that Volunteers may wear the Territorial Badges in white metal & silver but without honours in the case of those badges which have honours attached.

I'm not sure what AG was and fear I might have meant A(rmy) C(ouncil) ???

Yes, I think the SA honours were authorised in 1905 but I can't find the RACD reference at the moment.

Although Churchill often gives RACD references - or at least, dates that can be worked out - he hardly ever gives other references such as the Leics collar one you cite earlier; very frustrating !
I was interested to see that certain VB units did not adopt (bronze) OSD badges until 1906 !
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  #23  
Old 26-01-14, 09:10 PM
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AG is possibly Adjutant General then as now responsible for Army personnel matters.

Tim
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  #24  
Old 26-01-14, 09:50 PM
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Thanks Tim, that makes more sense as I have a suspicion that the AC was only formed in 1904 ???
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  #25  
Old 27-01-14, 05:12 AM
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Hi all,

It is interesting to note that the Officers, Warrant Officers and Sergeants cap star of the Leicestershire Regiment (depicted below) with a silver Royal Tiger and Irish Harp on a gilt-metal eight-pointed star is illustrated in the 1905 edition of the The Green Tiger, the Leicesters regimental journal. The badge in this article is dated 1900. It is described in Churchill as worn from 1883 by the regular battalions. I take this to mean the 1st and 2nd battalions. The 3rd Battalion which was from the former Leicestershire Militia, which was the battalion that actually won the honour of the Irish Harp in 1798 from Irish service was credited with wearing the Irish Harp and Crown but not the Royal Tiger badge or other honours on at least its colour (Records and Badges of the British Army, 1895, Chichester and Burges-Short). This may have extended to the cap badges. Badges of the 1st VB Leicesters are not noted.

Just to add to the intrigue, below I also show an OSD version of the Irish Harp and Royal Tiger badge in bronzed metal. It is smaller than the gilt and silver star badge. If the Leicesters did not take on OSD badges as described in this thread until 1906 then this one fills a gap potentially. If the Leicesters took up the standard Royal Tiger with superscribed Hindoostan scroll and Leicestershire Regiment scroll below in July 1897 on their forage caps and we have both Officers, OR's version and OSD versions then was the star badge worn on the Service Dress caps in both silver and gilt and in OSD versions.

It would be interesting to see a Broderick cap badge for the Leicesters. i think this may be on the Forum so will look for that.

Martin and I are piecing this together, regards Dean.
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  #26  
Old 27-01-14, 09:17 PM
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Default Directive of 22nd May 1901 from WO 359/10

Hello Julian

Many thanks indeed for posting up what you have on the directive in WO 359/10, about volunteer battalions being allowed to wear the same badges as the regulars of their parent regiment but without any honours. Just so we’re clear, I do note that when it talks about “the Territorial Badges” this means those of the regular line infantry regiments, as opposed to the later Territorial Force that succeeded the volunteers in 1908. Anyhow, even though what you have might not be a verbatim transcript, it does seem to confirm that before this date the volunteers shouldn’t have had badges like the regulars, or at least such badges weren’t officially sanctioned. As I’ve said this does seem to fit for the 1st Vol. Battn of the Leicesters, and with what Churchill says about them only adopting the tiger cap badge of the regular battalions in 1902. Whether this situation was the same for other regiments I obviously can’t say, but I’m sure this would warrant further investigation.

As to the 1905 granting of honours, I did make a posting here about this in specific relation to the Leicestershire 1st Vol. Battn, but I don’t have anything in the way of official documentation in this respect. Regarding the 1906 adoption of Service Dress by the volunteers, Steppler references minutes of the Finance Committee of 1st Vol. Battn, and whilst I haven’t looked at these myself I’m sure it is correct. Consequently if they didn’t official take Service Dress into wear till 1906, it does make sense that they didn’t have any OSD badges until then either. Anyway, thank you again for posting up what you have on the directive of 22nd May 1901, which is greatly appreciated.

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 27-01-14 at 09:43 PM.
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  #27  
Old 28-01-14, 01:28 AM
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Default Leicesters Forage Cap & Service Dress Cap Badges

Hi Dean

Good to see your officers’ badges, and a very nice pair they make too. It is also particularly interesting to see you say the OSD star is actaully smaller in size than silver and gilt one. However I’m afraid you’re really testing my knowledge here, as my primary interest is just the Leicesters’ tiger cap badges from 1897 onwards, and I’m afraid I don’t collect other kinds of badges and accoutrement.

Anyhow, I must begin by saying that the 1906 date with regard to Service Dress, as given by Steppler in Britons, To Arms!, relates solely to the 1st Vol. Battn of the Leicestershire Regiment and not to the other battalions. Presumably these did adopted Service Dress in 1902, however your OSD star badge is interesting in this respect because it would potentially suggest that this was worn before an OSD tiger badge had been approved.

My understanding, and no doubt other more learned members of this Forum will point out if I am wrong, was that the tiger cap badges that were sealed in 1897 were specifically for the Field Service Cap (i.e. the Side Cap), which had replaced the Glengary in 1893. Though, as you say, Officers, Warrant Officers and Sergeants would also have worn a Forage Cap upon which would have been one of the star badges you show; indeed such badges are described in the 1900 Dress Regulations for the Officers of the Army, p. 88.

I also think I’m right when I say ORs only had their Forage Cap from 1902 onwards, when the ‘Brodrick’ Cap was introduced to replace the Field Service Cap (or at least worn as something in between a helmet and a side cap). The badges for this were the same as for the FS Cap, only with a very long vertical shank (slider) instead of loops (lugs). Incidentally, I haven’t personally seen a ‘Brodrick’ for the Leicesters, and would be keen to do so if anyone knows of one? Anyway, the ‘Brodrick’ was replaced in 1905 with a new style Peaked Forage Cap, for which, as Julian’s research has revealed, the vertical shanks on the cap badges had to be shortened.

The officers’ however acquired their version of the new style Peaked Forage Cap in 1902, at the same time as the general introduction of Service Dress, so that the officers’ cap for Service Dress was essentially the same pattern only of ‘drab mixture serge’. Now I’m only surmising, but I take it that initially officers continued to wear their old Forage Cap badges, like your silver and gilt star, on their new style Peaked Forage Cap. But assume that by the time the ORs got theirs, in 1905, the officers were wearing tiger cap badges like the ORs. This means that your OSD star badge could, conceivably, be what was worn in the Service Dress version of the Peaked Forage Cap from 1902 until 1905.

Basically I’m saying I think we’re looking at officers wearing the old Victorian star badges in their new style Peaked Forage Caps from 1902-1905, but after this wearing the tiger cap badge that they formerly wore in their Field Service Caps from 1897 onwards. Whereas the ORs wore their tiger cap badges, which they had also worn in their Field Service Caps, first in the ‘Brodrick’, and then in their new style Peaked Forage Caps, from 1903 onwards. I also think your OSD star has a good chance of being worn in the officers’ Service Dress Caps from 1902-1905, after which OSD tiger cap badges would have been worn.

I’ll admit this is all a bit out of my area of interest and collecting! As I said to you in an e-mail, I am currently trying to work out a general chronology for the Leicesters tiger cap badges, which I’m hoping to post to the Forum in due course for comment. So regarding the above, if anyone thinks I’m way off on any of this please post up! I’d be more than happy to be corrected, because, like Dean, I’m keen to sort out exactly what was worn and when!!

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 28-01-14 at 10:10 AM.
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  #28  
Old 28-01-14, 10:57 AM
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Hi Martin,

Thanks for your detailed and systematic approach to the question of the star badges. I wish I could be as focussed as you.

There is a photograph on page 38 of issue 19 of the Regiment magazine from Feb/Mar 1997 (which covers The Royal Anglian Regiment 1685-1997) depicting a Leicestershire captain in 1879 dressed in blue patrol jacket for undress wear with a star cap badge with Royal Tiger and Irish Harp which would be the silver and gilt version which I have illustrated earlier in this thread.

Photographic evidence with dating such as this is most helpful.

Be great to see other dated Leicesters photographs and their badges.

Regards Dean.
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  #29  
Old 28-01-14, 11:36 AM
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officer 1906 and ncos 1905.
Bob
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  #30  
Old 28-01-14, 08:46 PM
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Default Photos of Forage Caps, etc.

Hello Dean & Bob

Glad to hear you found my long posting of interest Dean, and many thanks indeed for telling me about the piece in Regiment: The Military Heritage Collection magazine about ‘The Royal Leicestershire Regiment 1688-1964’, which I’ve now had a good look at. The photo of Captain Colwyn William Vulliamy is a real cracker, and my understanding is that he is wearing the old style Victorian Peaked Forage Cap that I mentioned above, along with, as you noted, one of the silver and gilt star badges. I don’t know if you saw, but on p. 26, under the section for ‘The Royal Lincolnshire Regiment 1685-1960’ is a photo of “An officer wearing the 1st pattern officers’ khaki field dress uniform” (i.e. Service Dress) with a “bronzed” cap badge being a “Sphinx superimposed upon an eight-pointed star”. All of which appears to indicate that the Lincolns too had an OSD star badge around 1902 similar to your Leicesters one; though maybe someone on the Forum could confirm this for us?

It’s also excellent to see the two pictures you kindly put up Bob, of the officer in Service Dress from 1906 sporting an OSD tiger cap badge, and the ‘Winners of the Rolleston Charity Cup’ from 1905 with the officer on the left wearing what looks like the new style Peaked Forage Cap complete with tiger badge, because this does seem to add evidence that by around 1905 the officers were no longer wearing the star badges in their dress caps but had indeed gone over to using the tiger like the ORs. More interesting still is that it looks like the NCO on the right is wearing the ‘Brodrick’, but I can’t make out the badge? Is it a tiger?

Anyhow, by way of illustrating what I was saying about the changes in headdress, here are the pictures from the Dress Regulations for the Officers of the Army of 1900, Plate 9, showing the Field Service Cap and the older Peaked Forage Cap, together with one from the Dress Regulations For the Army of 1911, Plate 8, showing the new style Peaked Forage Cap that came into wear in 1902:



Field Service Cap, 1900



Peaked Forage Cap, 1900



Peaked Forage Cap, 1911

Anyway, thank you again Dean for letting me know about the article in Regiment magazine, which I didn’t know about before, and I’m also particularly grateful to you Bob for sharing your photos, especially as the 1905 one shows a Leicesters ‘Brodrick’ in wear!

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

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