Long Range Patrol Badge

[atillathenunns]

Shaun, if LRP badges were that simple, I doubt Iain and I would waste our time discussing them.
Although Brendan has done a “sterling” job of answering many questions regarding the LRP badge, there are still many unanswered questions.

The big question for me is the hallmarks, for others it is exact dates of when the dies were made and the dies destroyed.

Iain has also mentioned that there is also a group of collectors who are of the opinion that LRP badges without hallmarks are fake.

I am sure you are being 100% sincere about your conversations with LRP vets, but this is asking forum members to believe in some kind of blind faith based on a conversation some 60 years down the track.

However, if you could provide hard evidence of the unmarked LRP badge with iron tight provenance that you mention, this would go a long way to satisfying the critics.

This discussion may end with no new answers, but then again we just may find the answers we seek.

Cheers
Brent

[The Long Ranger]

Gentleman,

Don't be confused by the 3 marks used on Egyptian silver.

From 1 September, 1916, the hallmarking system established by the law of 8 August, 1906, came into force. Items produced in Egypt were stamped with three marks:

1. fineness and assay office (Cairo 800/1000).
2. Government mark
3. Date letter

But, and heres the crux, just like the British Hallmarking system, items of a small or light nature were not required to carry all three marks. In fact the minimum required for say an LRP badge was just a stamp of quality.

It would seem strange that if all the badges were made by a single maker, for that Jeweller to stamp only some of the badges, and in fact he would be breaking Egyptian Assay laws if he did not stamp ALL the badges he made.

IMHO until absoloute concrete provenance can be provided for an unmarked badge, I will be assuming that only correctly marked badges are genuine.

[QUOTE=pukman;91083]It has been recorded that the maker of this badge was Issac Faber,a French Jeweller operating in Cairo,during WW2.Many of the silversmiths in Cairo were of jewish origin.
The hallmarked badges have three symbols stamped on them .Firstly on the left is an assay mark which indicates the city of origin and the silver standard of .900,.800 and .700,the middle symol being the national mark of Egypt and the right mark as you view it is the date in Arabic.

Silver hallmarks were introduced in Egyptian silversmithing by the English in 1906 and became a legal requirement in 1916.


Legend has it that the Insignia was designed by Corporal ''Bluey '' Grimsby a member of the LRP,and was modelled on a scorpion that stung Grimsby three times.

pitured is an example of the Egyptian hallmark,similar to the one on the LRP badge.[/QUOTE

hello ian, could you tell me where it was reported that issac faber made the lrp badge. i am researching a hallmarked PPA, as VP spent time with the LRDG thought there might be a connection. i note on the first pic on this thread the hallmark has only 2 elements rather than the three. Pic of rear of my badge
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...t=11218&page=2
cheers, Martin

[pukman]

Hello Martin,

the LRP badge makers name is recorded in Brendon O'Carrolls book the ""The Kiwi Scorpions",reprints be obtained from tokenpublishing in the U.K.

cheers iain

[saumua]

Iain,

If the unhallmarked one you saw had a different pin back then it will have been buggered with:

1) Choices are - cast copy
2) Repaired original.

Was it cast or struck?

Shaun

Originally Posted by pukman

Hello Brent,

I followed up with research on Egyptian hallmarks as i believe it is an important part of this badge.If some of the information is incorrect then i will have to blame the sources(which you have correctly identified as being interenet based)


#I'm a litlte behind the eight ball as i do not have as a copy of Brendon O'Carroll's ''Kiwi Scorpions" ,but i'm confident their will be one under the Christmas tree.I have seen that part with the write up on the LRP badge where he makes the assumption that there are un-hallmarked badges.

# Still working on getting detailed photo's of Hallmark on LRP badge.

#Now ,their are sections of the NZ badge collecting community that are adamant that the unhallmarked LRP badges are fake ,and their our others that believe that they are genuine.I myself have a neutral stance at this moment untill someone can conclusively prove one way or the the other,i have no vested interests either way,and remain open minded on the outcome,and the reason i started this thread is to vacilitate on outcome on this debate.

#If unhallmarked badges have providence,i.e they have come from the LRP members themselves or estates ,then this must prove that they did exsist.I wonder if Brendon O'Carroll made his assumption on this fact.

# While i have only seen a small selection of hallmarked/unhallmarked LRP badges ,my observations apart from the obvious lack of hallmark ,the brooch pin catch on the unhallmarked badge is different.


cheers iain

[pukman]

Shaun,

i will have to take a digital camera with me next time i go to have a look at the unhallmarked LRP badge.

cheers iain

[atillathenunns]

Welcome to the discussion LR, the Egyptian Assay laws are indeed an important piece of the puzzle. Certainly, failure to comply would present the authorities an opportunity to confiscate any questionable goods off the manufacturer.

I have noticed that the first strongest implementation of Egyptian Assay laws was when the Expeditionary tourists arrived in Egypt shortly after the beginning of world war one, and then the second strongest implementation was shortly after they arrived in world war two.
I wonder if there is a connection?

Most of the WW2 silver badges that I have seen are marked with two or three hallmarks.
The few silver-plated badges (including a LRDG badge) that I have seen are marked with the word ‘SILVER’ and have a Assay hallmark.
Egyptian silver badges without hallmarks I would suspect are simply ‘White Metal’ badges.

Martin, the hallmarks on your badge are interesting. The date stamp appears to be different to that on the LRP badge. (Possibly a latter date stamp?)
If this is the case, taking in consideration that the LRP chaps destroyed the die (that was left in the Jewellers care) due to the jeweller selling badges to non-LRP members.
Would the PPA have used the same jeweller this being the case?

PS I have read that many opportunistic Arabs adopted Jewish names, as they were known to be the most reputable gold and silversmiths of the time.

[Kiwi ric]

The topic is getting good now

The PPA badge is fantastic, and also great to see the hall marks on the back, it could be quite a usefull tool in regards to dating the LRP badge also, with the different Markings,

In Regards to Shawns badge etc,

Could it be the fact that there is flaws on the badge, when looking at some of the others, Ghosting etc. that there was a chance that the Jewler didnt want to put his name to it, and was sold on as a sweetheart of the likes due to quality?

Food for thought anyhow

thanks very much for that info brent. been in touch with ric too and Guy Harris from PPA association figured: Hi Martin,

Well, that's interesting.

It's still difficult to make out the pics, but if the left hand letter is a 'G', it would make sense that the right hand symbol was a 'jeem', the 5th letter of the arabic alphabet - below:
ﺟ
That corresponds to a 'G'. In fact in Egyptian Arabic dialect, they actually pronounce it hard, like 'golf', whereas elsewhere they don't. So, in Egypt you'd have gemaa for mosque, whereas elsewhere it'd be jemaa. Anyway.... However, we'd need to try to work out the year that date letter corresponded to. What are you intending to do with this badge, Martin?

All the best,

G

The G referred to above is the Cairo Assay, followed by the cat then a jeem like character.

I am fairly certain the badge was acquired in late 42 or early 43 from the dated photos of the british soldier had which came with the badge. he also had a 50/52 commando badge and Arab legion headress and badge. a John Ryder at present I think he came to middle east with 10th Indian Division, served in Iraq / Syria and then on to Iran in 1941. He certainly visited palestine and the western desert too, by late 43 he had gone.

i understand the date letter changed from the serif capitals to arab letters [I]at some point[I] in the year so they could have been the same year

i guess conjecture is pointless though. again THANKS. martin

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Welcome to the discussion LR, the Egyptian Assay laws are indeed an important piece of the puzzle. Certainly, failure to comply would present the authorities an opportunity to confiscate any questionable goods off the manufacturer.

I have noticed that the first strongest implementation of Egyptian Assay laws was when the Expeditionary tourists arrived in Egypt shortly after the beginning of world war one, and then the second strongest implementation was shortly after they arrived in world war two.
I wonder if there is a connection?

Most of the WW2 silver badges that I have seen are marked with two or three hallmarks.
The few silver-plated badges (including a LRDG badge) that I have seen are marked with the word ‘SILVER’ and have a Assay hallmark.
Egyptian silver badges without hallmarks I would suspect are simply ‘White Metal’ badges.

Martin, the hallmarks on your badge are interesting. The date stamp appears to be different to that on the LRP badge. (Possibly a latter date stamp?)
If this is the case, taking in consideration that the LRP chaps destroyed the die (that was left in the Jewellers care) due to the jeweller selling badges to non-LRP members.
Would the PPA have used the same jeweller this being the case?

PS I have read that many opportunistic Arabs adopted Jewish names, as they were known to be the most reputable gold and silversmiths of the time.

Hello again, the hallmark research institute are due to publish a second volume on world hallmarks this year and it will include those for egypt during the period you are interested in. Danusia of the HRI is currently in touch with the Cairo Assay office she wrote:
It has been quite a task to decipher the actual stylized Arabic date letter used verses the more formal Arabic letter available on a keyboard that I have received from them. Your letter is just one example of this visual discrepancy. We are working on resolving this but it will be awhile before we finish this chapter, properly.

Cheers,

Danusia

Danusia Niklewicz, GG,FGA,ISA-CAPP,ASA
Director of Research
HALLMARK RESEARCH INSTITUTE
San Francisco - Los Angeles
001.310.829.5286 tel/fax

I will post when the book comes out. martin

[atillathenunns]

Martin, this is good news indeed.
To me the hallmarks are an important piece of the NZ LRP badge story, as they represented a means of consumer protection for the LRP chaps who purchased them.

It will be interesting to see if the Cat hallmark represents a .900 silver content, and ‘no cat’ represents a .800 silver content???

Although it is only speculation on my part, I believe that after the French Jeweller Issac Faber struck the LRP badges, he would have hand finished (trimmed) most of the badge, but probably left a small amount of excess for the Cairo assay office to take a scraping (known as a diet) from.

The assay office would then chemically analyse (known as cupellation) the scraping to determine the silver content.
After the badge has been assayed and found to comply with the standard of quality required by Egyptian law, the Cairo assay office would then hallmark it.

I’m thinking Faber would have added the pin after the badge was hallmarked.

Brent

[woronora]

I am sure that many have seen this NZLRDG badge currently on UK eBay; item number 130485174373. To looks to me to be cast copy. I would be interested in others' comments.

Cheers

John

[saumua]

Certainly looks cast.

[Kiwi ric]

its upto 399 pounds

Originally Posted by Kiwi ric

its upto 399 pounds

it sold for £497 so some one thinks it ok

peter