Long Range Patrol Badge

[Alan O]

They do say that a fool and his money are soon parted and there seem to be a lot of ill-informed fools out there collecting SF insignia with lots of money and a negligable amount of knowledge compared to some forum members.

[pukman]

The recession must be over,people are spending freely on reproductions.I guess you could say faked LRP badges are rare ,but if you can get 200 odd pound for one then there will be more come onto the market.

Fakes,copies,or restrikes call what you like,Its all about money.I wouldn't count out the possibility that more will come onto internet auction sites in the coming year(blurry photos and sellers claiming they have little knowledge etc)But at least readers of this thread will be forewarned.

cheers iain

[saumua]

My gut feel is the seller knows no better. These are so rare most people have never seen one - that said I doubt he would have believed me if I had told him it was a copy. The first brass copy I have seen.

Originally Posted by pukman

The recession must be over,people are spending freely on reproductions.I guess you could say faked LRP badges are rare ,but if you can get 200 odd pound for one then there will be more come onto the market.

Fakes,copies,or restrikes call what you like,Its all about money.I wouldn't count out the possibility that more will come onto internet auction sites in the coming year(blurry photos and sellers claiming they have little knowledge etc)But at least readers of this thread will be forewarned.

cheers iain

[Kiwi ric]

Ello guys, Here is a question for you blokes

at what stage did they issue the badge, early on during their very short time before they changed to the LRDG, or more at the end before the change?

[atillathenunns]

Hi Ric,

The situation was that General Freyberg on the 1 July 1940 authorised his New Zealanders to be loaned on detachment from the 2NZEF for temporary assignment to the British to supply manpower for the then newly formed Long Range Patrol Unit, (Commonly referred to as the LRP) which began operations on the 5th August 1940.

The problem was this left a big gap within the 2NZEF and Freyberg soon requested (October 1940) that his men be returned. This left the British little option and men from the 3rd Battalion Coldstream guards and the 2nd Scots Guards were sent in December 1940 to reinforce the LRP.
With the Guards as reinforcements the LRPU was reformed as the LRDG.

The unofficial silver NZ LRP badge with gilded scorpion was produced in early 1941 as a memento to mark the existence of what was nearly an all New Zealand unit.

Evidence suggests that there were at least 3 different grades of private purchase LRP badges. (Silver plated, .800 silver and .900 silver)

Hope this answers your questions.
Brent

[Kiwi ric]

Thanks for that Brent, I was trying to put a date to them.

[atillathenunns]

No problem Ric,
I highly recommend Brendan O’Carroll’s book The Kiwi Scorpions for quality information.

[Kiwi ric]

Thanks for that Brent, Brendan is a great chap, I have spoken to him afew times on the phone regarding research etc on the LRDG and LRP, and his books are fantastic

[pukman]

It has been recorded that the maker of this badge was Issac Faber,a French Jeweller operating in Cairo,during WW2.Many of the silversmiths in Cairo were of jewish origin.
The hallmarked badges have three symbols stamped on them .Firstly on the left is an assay mark which indicates the city of origin and the silver standard of .900,.800 and .700,the middle symol being the national mark of Egypt and the right mark as you view it is the date in Arabic.

Silver hallmarks were introduced in Egyptian silversmithing by the English in 1906 and became a legal requirement in 1916.


Legend has it that the Insignia was designed by Corporal ''Bluey '' Grimsby a member of the LRP,and was modelled on a scorpion that stung Grimsby three times.



pitured is an example of the Egyptian hallmark,similar to the one on the LRP badge.

[atillathenunns]

Iain I have tried to get to the bottom of Egyptian hallmarks, but it seems to me that most information available on the Internet is based on a book that has some bad mistakes.
If we can get some decent close ups of the hallmarks on you friends badge, we could contact the Egyptian Administration of Assays and Weights to provide an accurate identification of the hallmarks and in particular the silver content.

Brent

[pukman]

Hello Brent,

I followed up with research on Egyptian hallmarks as i believe it is an important part of this badge.If some of the information is incorrect then i will have to blame the sources(which you have correctly identified as being interenet based)


#I'm a litlte behind the eight ball as i do not have as a copy of Brendon O'Carroll's ''Kiwi Scorpions" ,but i'm confident their will be one under the Christmas tree.I have seen that part with the write up on the LRP badge where he makes the assumption that there are un-hallmarked badges.

# Still working on getting detailed photo's of Hallmark on LRP badge.

#Now ,their are sections of the NZ badge collecting community that are adamant that the unhallmarked LRP badges are fake ,and their our others that believe that they are genuine.I myself have a neutral stance at this moment untill someone can conclusively prove one way or the the other,i have no vested interests either way,and remain open minded on the outcome,and the reason i started this thread is to vacilitate on outcome on this debate.

#If unhallmarked badges have providence,i.e they have come from the LRP members themselves or estates ,then this must prove that they did exsist.I wonder if Brendon O'Carroll made his assumption on this fact.

# While i have only seen a small selection of hallmarked/unhallmarked LRP badges ,my observations apart from the obvious lack of hallmark ,the brooch pin catch on the unhallmarked badge is different.


cheers iain

[atillathenunns]

Iain, I should have worded my comments a little bit better.
Your comments regarding the Egyptian regulations applied to silver and Jewellers is correct and very important if we are to gain a thorough understanding of the LRP badge.

It is my information regarding the date stamp that may not be correct.
The confusion arises from the Egyptian 1940 change from using Roman letters to Arabic letters.
With several different points of view on this particular subject, it is a bit of a minefield.

It seems that due to a number of Arabic letters being very similar, some of the letters were excluded in the Egyptian hallmark table.
There also seems to be confusion as to where the Egyptians started their letter code, did it carry on from the Roman letters or did it start from the beginning of the Arab alphabet????

Just to confuse things even more, it seems that the change over was not at the beginning or end of the year, so the date stamp could possibly represent something along the lines of midyear to midyear.

Unfortunately, there is no Egyptian hallmark table available on the net, and from what I am hearing it is a closely guarded secret only known to the Egyptian Administration of Assays and Weights.
.
The good news is that I have found an LRP badge expert (Owns a LRP badge with iron tight provenance) who may be willing to submit a scan of his 3 hallmarks to the EAAW for analysis.

If we can get a high definition scan of your friends 2 hallmarks, we could make a comparison to see if there is a difference in the Assay stamping.

Unfortunately, we will not see photos of the LRP badge with 3 hallmarks on this forum, as the owner wishes to protect against the modern day forger.
However I am sure he will share his findings regarding silver content and date stamp.

IMO it is unlikely that we will see a good forgery that could be made from photos alone.

I think the greatest problem will be that eventually either driven by greed or ignorance, someone who has an original LRP badge will place it in the hands of a sophisticated modern day forger.

As for unmarked LRP badges, these raise some very obvious questions indeed, and to be honest, I don’t have answers, just more questions.

Until we can find an unmarked LRP badge with iron tight provenance, we won’t be 100% accurate.

However Iain, as you say, lets debate it up while we wait for one to turn up.

Brent

[atillathenunns]

This is interesting.

Evening Post, 15 March 1941

[Kiwi ric]

the research is just fantastic keep it up fellows love the Newspaper cliping Brent

[saumua]

Brent,

LRP badges are simple.

The vets say they collected the die and broke it. Bendan and I have spoken to vets and viewed original badges with provenance with and without hallmarks. Its OK if you dont believe this but this is what I have heard directly from vets and from Brendan who has spoken to vets for over 20 years.

Its simple - if its struck its real. If its cast it isn't.

As you know cast badges are easy to spot.

Hope this helps.

Shaun

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Iain, I should have worded my comments a little bit better.
Your comments regarding the Egyptian regulations applied to silver and Jewellers is correct and very important if we are to gain a thorough understanding of the LRP badge.

It is my information regarding the date stamp that may not be correct.
The confusion arises from the Egyptian 1940 change from using Roman letters to Arabic letters.
With several different points of view on this particular subject, it is a bit of a minefield.

It seems that due to a number of Arabic letters being very similar, some of the letters were excluded in the Egyptian hallmark table.
There also seems to be confusion as to where the Egyptians started their letter code, did it carry on from the Roman letters or did it start from the beginning of the Arab alphabet????

Just to confuse things even more, it seems that the change over was not at the beginning or end of the year, so the date stamp could possibly represent something along the lines of midyear to midyear.

Unfortunately, there is no Egyptian hallmark table available on the net, and from what I am hearing it is a closely guarded secret only known to the Egyptian Administration of Assays and Weights.
.
The good news is that I have found an LRP badge expert (Owns a LRP badge with iron tight provenance) who may be willing to submit a scan of his 3 hallmarks to the EAAW for analysis.

If we can get a high definition scan of your friends 2 hallmarks, we could make a comparison to see if there is a difference in the Assay stamping.

Unfortunately, we will not see photos of the LRP badge with 3 hallmarks on this forum, as the owner wishes to protect against the modern day forger.
However I am sure he will share his findings regarding silver content and date stamp.

IMO it is unlikely that we will see a good forgery that could be made from photos alone.

I think the greatest problem will be that eventually either driven by greed or ignorance, someone who has an original LRP badge will place it in the hands of a sophisticated modern day forger.

As for unmarked LRP badges, these raise some very obvious questions indeed, and to be honest, I don’t have answers, just more questions.

Until we can find an unmarked LRP badge with iron tight provenance, we won’t be 100% accurate.

However Iain, as you say, lets debate it up while we wait for one to turn up.

Brent