Black Watch

[Donny B.]

I have just been reading Jeff McWilliam's posting of a Black Watch badge on 20/10/09 and there were several comments in relation to "scrolled" badges dating from 1901 and later "unscrolled" badsges. Can one of the Black Watch expert tell me if my badge, the one on the left, is an example of a scrolled or unscrolled badge. I suspect the scroll is probably the banner that goes behind the crown at the top and the lion or sphinx at the bottom. Is that correct?

If that is so, what is the badge on the right which has the same banner but a different crown.

Donny B.

[KLR]

Donny, welcome to the world of badge collecting. You've got a bit to go but this Forum is the best place to learn.
One of the fundamental chronologica criteria in British badges is the crown. The design changed with monarchs. The crown on our left hand badge is the "Tudor Crown" which was worn by Kings Ed VIII, Geo V and Geo VI - thus usually abbreviated to KC. Officially it was worn from the death of Qn Victoria in January 1901 but it often took time to make its appearance on things like badges. In this particular case (this BW badge) it appeared in 1904. The scrolls on this type were worn up to 1938 when there was a very slight change in design.
After the death of Geo VI in 1952 QE" wears what is officially known as St Edward's Crown - and therefore abbreviated to QC (Queen's Crown). This is what your right hand badge has. I'm not sure of the actual date of adoption, in many cases it wasn't until 1955 or so.
I hope this gets you going.
(I can never remember all the RB changes but individual soldiers often replaced lugs and sliders to fit individual hats - all part of the history of the badge as far as I am concerned. ) J

[davec2]

Hi Julian and Donny,

I was under the impression that the scrolls were omitted round about 1838 or so, that would mean the second badge wouldn't be EIIR but would in fact, be a QVC, the first badge had a Victorian crown, K.& K. 655, as always, I stand to be corrected ??

Dave.

[KLR]

Yes, poor eyesight and the shiny metal confounded me - thus worn between 1882 and 1904.
I'll stick to KLR !!!
but the principle of crowns is what I was trying to get across.

[Donny B.]

You are right KLR, I do have a lot to learn and there will be plenty of questions coming for you wise blokes to answer. I just hope they are not too mundane.

After your response I went back to see what was said in Jeff McWilliam's thread. The result was a bit of confusion as your explanation would have meant they went from scrolled badges to unscrolled badges and back to scrolled badges which didn't seem to agree with the earlier comments. The Queen Victoria crown makes more sense. The photo certainly was a bit shiney, sorry about that.

Thanks for setting us right, Dave.

In that earlier thread I got the impression that Black Watch badges were a bit ordinary. Does this apply to that example with the Queen Victoria crown as well?

Donny

[davec2]

Hi Donny,

In my opinion, I don't think any badge is " ordinary ", I collect Scottish Badges amongst others and I've yet to lay my hands on a genuine QVC, B.W. version, I think that The Black Watch, as with most Scottish regimental badges have a very nicely designed badge.

Each time I handle a genuine badge I get that feeling..................am I going mad, or do other collectors do the same ??

Dave.

[Alan O]

The first badge was authorised to be worn from 1902-34. The second is pre 1901 and is Queen Victoria's crown. After 1934 the regt reversed the precedence of its titles of The Black Watch, the Royal Highlanders. A new badge without these title scrolls came into use at this time. In the 1950s this king's crown ( Tudor crown) changed to the Queen's Crown (St Edward's). ORs badges were not issued with this design until much later and in then anodised aluminium. White metal ones do exist but there is nor ecord of them being an officially sealed pattern as far as I can find. From 1958-68 the BW wore the Highland Brigade badge in a/a.

The other factor is up to 1926 the central motto could be spelt Lacessit or Lacesset. Yours being Lacessit could be a 1930's badge as this was the spelling decided upon.

[KLR]

Yes, Alan, the exact dates (from ACD records) are 1882-1904 and 1904-1938. As stated, I have no idea when the QC badge came in for the BW (too modern for me).
Don't forget, the Scotttish regiments had been wearing the Glengarry for ages which is why theirs go back to the 1880s, it was only non-Scottish units that had new "cap" badges in the 1890s.
There is no mention of the different spellings in the ACD records so I reckon it was a manufactures quirk.

[Donny B.]

I hiope I didn't tread on any toes with my "bit ordinary" comment. I think they are nice badges, too, which is why I have them. I too get wondering feeling each time I handle a nice badge that there might be something wrong with me. It is just that in the earlier thread there were comments to the effect, "what makes thye badge so special to be paying that amount."

I appreciate every one's input so far. A little more knowledge to be tucked away.

Donny

[davec2]

Hi Donny,

On this occasion I am at a loss, I do not even know what you are referring to re the " earlier thread " and how much you paid etc, have you got two threads going ??

Dave.

[Donny B.]

The "earlier thread" that I referred to was the one that I mentioned in my first post. It was one started by Jeff McWilliam on 23/10/09 which I read while I was browsing some of the earlier posts. He was asking about a Black Watch badge that he wanted to purchase. Because it differred from the ones I have it picqued my interest enough for me to get them out to compare them and find out about them. I started a new thread but some of my references were to comments made in Jeff McWilluiams thread..

Sorry for any confusion but the important thing for me is that now I have a pretty good idea about my badges, thanks to you guys. I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and an appreciation of your willingness to share it.

Am I confusing "threads" and "posts"?

Donny