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  #16  
Old 19-02-16, 10:42 AM
John Mulcahy's Avatar
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another piece in the puzzle. The 2 piece badge being worn by the drum major and the pipe major as late as 1968.

It appears as if this 2 piece badge may well have been worn from the 1940's to 1960's certainly by the PM and possibly for a time by pipers also.

also attached piper Brian Shanahan 1958 and a piper from the cover of 1969 album release with single piece badges (notice the Caubeen pulled to the left).


John
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Inniskilling Fusiliers DM and PM 1968 001.jpg (58.5 KB, 46 views)
File Type: jpg piper Brian Shanahan 1958.jpg (64.1 KB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg skins fontana album cover 1969.jpg (35.4 KB, 54 views)
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  #17  
Old 19-02-16, 11:32 AM
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John,
(notice the Caubeen pulled to the left). As his tunic is also buttoned wrong and not all skin's pipers were left handed, is it not just the negative reversed?
The first picture say's the PM,DM and bandmaster are Royal Irish Rangers, they may well be, but the photo looks to have been taken while they were in the North Irish Brigade before the Rangers were formed / badged.
Eddie
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  #18  
Old 19-02-16, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebro View Post
John,
(notice the Caubeen pulled to the left). As his tunic is also buttoned wrong and not all skin's pipers were left handed, is it not just the negative reversed?
The first picture say's the PM,DM and bandmaster are Royal Irish Rangers, they may well be, but the photo looks to have been taken while they were in the North Irish Brigade before the Rangers were formed / badged.
Eddie
Eddie

on the album cover - well spotted the cross belt is also reversed, you must be right.

With regard to the photo of Horn, Cunningham and Adlington. BM Horne is wearing either the NIB or RIR badge and you may well be right.

BM Horne , Ronald Frank MBE ARCM was BM 1 R. Innis Fus 1959-1968 and BM 1 Bn R.I. Rangers in 1968 succeeded by Brian William Kingsbury 1968-1969. Horne then became BM at the R. I Rang Depot on 13 Dec 1968 and retired 19 April 1970.

The image and data is form History of British Military Bands: Infantry and Irish (v. 3) June, 1997
by Gordon Turner , Alwyn Turner,

John
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  #19  
Old 19-02-16, 12:59 PM
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John,
It would be the NIB badge as he would not have worn the RUR badge with the Skin's caubeen,cloth backing and hackel.
Eddie

Last edited by ebro; 19-02-16 at 01:23 PM.
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  #20  
Old 19-02-16, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ebro View Post
John,
It would be the NIB badge as he would not have worn the RUR badge with the Skin's caubeen,cloth backing and hackel.
Eddie
I agree Eddie you are right - I do not believe he would have worn the Rangers badge with Inniskilling embellishments. Still evidence of the 2 piece badge likely in use into the 1960's.

John
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  #21  
Old 19-02-16, 04:08 PM
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Another picture of a Drum Major c1964, wearing the two piece badge.
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File Type: jpg DSCF2844.jpg (66.0 KB, 46 views)
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  #22  
Old 25-04-16, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by John Mulcahy View Post
Danny


I did a little digging tonight as your observation got me thinking that there appears to be at least 4 castle designs in use from the mid 1920's to mid 1960's - that is a lot of change.

I decided to look at the IWN online database and found I have been wrong all along in my assumption about the first official Sgt Pipers and Pipers badge. I thought SPN 3587 would be that castle badge shown below and dated as 1921 in Harris' book. But it is not.

That pattern card is transcribed on the IWM data base as a grenade badge....

Physical description

badge, split pin, card, 2 seals . Thick card label . ms, top: Obsolete, 54/Infy/5796, G/150, 11/5/27; Cat 1409 . badge: A bonnet badge for Pipers of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, being a flaming grenade, the flames in a semi-circle, on the ball of which is the castle of Inniskilling with St. George's flag flying to the left from the central tower; below the castle a scroll inscribed INNISKILLING. Grenade and flames in gilding metal, castle and scroll in white metal. Pair of lugs to reverse. Also on the label a cotter pin. . Standard . Standard / No. 3587 / 1921 . Badge Bonnet, GM & GS, with shanks & pin. / Sergt. Piper & Pipers / Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers . (When finished to be German Silver 12 gauge, Gilding Metal 14 gauge. For quality of metal see 4480/1897 & 4481/1897 and - deleted) Specn. (ACD/888A - deleted). U/24; . approved 27/10/21 (signature illegible); authority given as 54/Infy/4643, 30-6-21; . Reverse, ms: 1893; 130; Locker (27, 130 - deleted) . Badge and pin secured tp label with white cotton tape and sealed to reverse with two brown sealing wax seals bearing the Royal Arms encircled War Department Pattern.


http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30075178

I assume this is a suitably larger grenade for use by pipers- I may get a chance to view this pattern in the coming month. If I do I shall report back.

I also assume if it was ever worn - it was only for short time before the regiment started replacing it with castle pattern badges.

lots to ponder....


John

For those of you interested in piper's badges of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers I managed to view and examine sealed pattern 3587 today. It is not a large badge as I speculated it is in fact identical to the O/R forage cap grenade SPN 4684. It is the first officially sealed Sgt Pipers & Pipers badge for the regiment (3 Bn had a unique non-official design prior) and clearly this grenade badge did not last too long before being superseded by large dimension WM castle badges in the regiment.


John
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  #23  
Old 17-01-19, 11:39 AM
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IH,

Following our recent IM exchange I revisited this thread and indeed you are right in The Regiment Magazine issue 42, The Royal Irish Regiment Part , 1881-1999 page 12 a photo of the pipes and drums dated 1945 shows all pipers are indeed wearing this 2-piece bonnet badge.

This for me is a discovery of a 5th pattern pipers badge for the rgt. Can you tell me what the photo attribution in the the magazine please? I wonder if it is really 1945. I looked back at images of the Pipes and drums dated 1934 (attribution rgt museum and posted below) and they are wearing this two piece badge

If the dates are correct (and comparing it to images such as the one in this link here)


https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205204546

then this badge may be a 3rd pattern dating from the early 1930's to June 1939 (usine the IWM pictures of Dancers of the 2nd battalion, Catterick June 1939 as a reference)

food for thought.

thanks

John
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File Type: jpg Fusilier-Pipers-1934 Museum.jpg (75.2 KB, 22 views)

Last edited by John Mulcahy; 17-01-19 at 11:46 AM.
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  #24  
Old 04-03-19, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishhorse View Post
Another picture of a Drum Major c1964, wearing the two piece badge.
IH

What is the source, attribution for this image please? I have doubts it is 1964 (as the NIB badge was in wear by that time).

John
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  #25  
Old 04-03-19, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by irishhorse View Post
Seen this today, what's the forums opinion on this one ? I've not seen another two piece badge too compare it with !
IH

I am becoming more and more convinced that this two piece badge is actually the 1927 design for Sgt Pipers and Pipers and that the image in the regiment magazine is incorrectly dated.

The two piece badge is seen in wear in a photo from the Rgt museum (dated Aldershot 1934) below. I post it here as the gallery links on the museum page appear to be dead.

The two piece design is also in keeping with the intent of the 1927 WM design (actually rendered in two pieces for officers but unintentionally in one piece for Other Ranks)

Photographs (such as the well known Dancers of the 2nd battalion, Catterick June 1939, Imperial War Museum) and the 1944 dated image here



THE BRITISH ARMY IN ITALY 1944. © IWM (NA 13057)IWM Non Commercial License

appear to show that it was replaced by the large one piece WM badge that I previously thought had been the 1927 badge.

So the sequence that I have for the pipers badges from 1900 is

1) Special badge 4 Battalion (Bn) (from 1908 3rd Bn) c. 1885-c. 1920
2) First official pattern, Sealed Pattern Number (SPN) 3587/1921 (The regular forage cap badge with pins)
3) Unofficial castle pattern, see illustration of PM Fisher in R.G. Harris’ book “The Irish Regiments A pictorial record”
4) SPN 10173/1927 which I think is the two piece design
5) The large WM Castle (regimental supply no SPN) c. 1939 - c. early 1950's
6) Smaller Silver plated castle, (regimental supply no SPN) c. early 1950's - c. early 1960's
7) The N. Irish Brigade large pipers badge (regimental supply no SPN), c. early 1960's

John
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File Type: jpg Inniskilling fusilier-pipers-1934.jpg (75.2 KB, 8 views)
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  #26  
Old 04-03-19, 09:52 AM
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Default Inniskilling Fusiliers Pipers

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mulcahy View Post
IH

What is the source, attribution for this image please? I have doubts it is 1964 (as the NIB badge was in wear by that time).

John
Its from Pomp and Ceremony. I've only a few photocopied pages from this magazine. So can't add much. But caption reads "The Drum Major leads the pipers of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers on parade".

Last edited by irishhorse; 04-03-19 at 01:49 PM.
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  #27  
Old 04-03-19, 11:36 AM
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Default ROYAL INNISKILLING FUSILIERS PIPERS

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mulcahy View Post
IH,

Following our recent IM exchange I revisited this thread and indeed you are right in The Regiment Magazine issue 42, The Royal Irish Regiment Part , 1881-1999 page 12 a photo of the pipes and drums dated 1945 shows all pipers are indeed wearing this 2-piece bonnet badge.

This for me is a discovery of a 5th pattern pipers badge for the rgt. Can you tell me what the photo attribution in the the magazine please? I wonder if it is really 1945. I looked back at images of the Pipes and drums dated 1934 (attribution rgt museum and posted below) and they are wearing this two piece badge

If the dates are correct (and comparing it to images such as the one in this link here)


https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205204546

then this badge may be a 3rd pattern dating from the early 1930's to June 1939 (usine the IWM pictures of Dancers of the 2nd battalion, Catterick June 1939 as a reference)

food for thought.

thanks

John
The caption for the photo is "The pipes and drums of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, 1945. They are shown wearing the caubeen at a very acute angle showing the grey and regimental badge" No further information for the photo.

Last edited by irishhorse; 04-03-19 at 01:09 PM.
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  #28  
Old 25-01-20, 05:22 AM
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Danny,

it appears the 2-piece badge was also worn by the drum major, I got this image from the booklet produced to accompany the Sept 1964 tour of Canada & the USA. The photo is undated but is clearly post 1945 and prior to "badging" as North Irish Brigade.

John

apologies Danny, I only just realized that you posted this already in the thread.
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File Type: jpg Drum Major R. Innis Fusiliers 2 piece badgecropped.jpg (72.7 KB, 17 views)

Last edited by John Mulcahy; 26-01-20 at 03:08 AM. Reason: added postscript
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  #29  
Old 25-01-20, 10:02 AM
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Just as a point of interest the Caubeen as a military headdress came very late to the wardrobe of the Irish Regiments of the British Army, in most cases hundreds of years after they’d been raised. Badges had to be found for them and as so often in the British Army it seems a strong likelihood to me that existing insignia naturally became the inspiration. In the case of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers I strongly believe that the Caubeen badge is based upon the bandsman’s music case (aka pouch) badge, which had existed since the reign of Queen Victoria. There were a variety of patterns over the years and in several regiments the badge used by the 1st Battalion was different to that used by its 2nd Battalion, especially if they did not share the same lineage. The music case badges themselves were often based on the old regimental shoulder belt plates that were also in use a long time, but abolished following the issue of new equipment after the Crimean War. The size of all these badges was similar.
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File Type: jpeg D662F72E-EF89-4BDB-9E80-FEA2605E0C8B.jpeg (27.9 KB, 8 views)

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 25-01-20 at 10:25 AM.
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