Coldstream Guards white metal cap star

[grenadierguardsman]

I would like views on the following please;

We know that Battalion Staff wore silver cap stars circa 1870. Could it have been possible that before they wore, white metal cap stars ? Trying to put a use to these white metal cap stars we see every now and then. Musicians have been mentioned.....
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

I would like views on the following please;

We know that Battalion Staff wore silver cap stars circa 1870. Could it have been possible that before they wore, white metal cap stars ? Trying to put a use to these white metal cap stars we see every now and then. Musicians have been mentioned.....
Andy

It certainly seems possible that 2nd and 3rd Foot Guards musicians did indeed wear white metal cap stars because they were from very early days in regimental history more finely caparisoned than the ordinary rank and file. Later on their ranks all had tunics of the same quality as sergeants and band corporals had gold lace stripes rather than the white worsted of the ordinary service companies. The idea was that as ‘front of house’ for their regiment they should always make the most impressive visual impact. This is the origin too of the drum major’s fine appearance.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

It certainly seems possible that 2nd and 3rd Foot Guards musicians did indeed wear white metal cap stars because they were from very early days in regimental history more finely caparisoned than the ordinary rank and file. Later on their ranks all had tunics of the same quality as sergeants and band corporals had gold lace stripes rather than the white worsted of the ordinary service companies. The idea was that as ‘front of house’ for their regiment they should always make the most impressive visual impact.

In that case, did Battalion Staff wear gilding metal cap stars ?
Andy

[Hawthorn]

Always found it strange how distant the Band are from the Battalions of the Regiment, almost a law unto themselves and certainly wouldn't surprise me if silver was worn. Would be nice to find some documentary evidence to support this.

Simon.

[grenadierguardsman]

I think written/typed information on the above will be very hard to find. If indeed its out there for starters.
We do know though that Battalion Staff were wearing something different to Silver cap stars pre 1870.....
And that white metal caps stars ( genuine ) are about, and must have been worn. By whom.....
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

In that case, did Battalion Staff wear gilding metal cap stars ?
Andy

I don’t know the answer to that Andy. We know that metal badges (as opposed to numbers) were first worn by the Foot Guards on undress headdress in the mid to late 1830s, starting with a particular type of forage cap, but that’s all that’s known with any certainty. I imagine that these things evolved fairly quickly because the two fundamental principles, that battalion HQ SNCO staff (headed remember by the Sergeant Major) AND bands wore superior dress AND appointments among the other ranks, was already well established and not at all a new thing. It was just a matter of applying those embedded principles to undress headdress. These two principles were then gradually emulated by the infantry of the line. It’s not an exaggeration to say that the genesis of the regimental cap badge as we know it today began with the then three regiments of Foot Guards, although it’s true to say that they in turn were inspired by the metal badges that had been worn on Foot Guards cartouche pouches and cross belt plates.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I don’t know the answer to that Andy. We know that metal badges (as opposed to numbers) were first worn by the Foot Guards on undress headdress in the mid to late 1830s, starting with a particular type of forage cap, but that’s all that’s known with any certainty. I imagine that these things evolved fairly quickly because the two fundamental principles, that battalion HQ SNCO staff (headed remember by the Sergeant Major) AND bands wore superior dress and appointments among the other ranks was already well established and not at all a new thing. It was just a matter of applying these embedded principles to undress headdress. These principles were then emulated by the infantry of the line.

I have to agree with you Toby. Would be nice to see a sealed pattern, or a mention somewhere.....
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

I have to agree with you Toby. Would be nice to see a sealed pattern, or a mention somewhere.....
Andy

The 1830s were such a long time ago Andy and the regimental order books in which these things were painstakingly recorded in copper plate have often not survived the movement of records during two World wars, particularly as dusty old ledgers were not seen in the same way by clerical staff back in those centuries as we look at them now.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

The 1830s were such a long time ago Andy and the regimental order books in which these things were painstakingly recorded in copper plate have often not survived the movement of records during two World wars, particularly as dusty old ledgers were not seen in the same way by clerical staff back in those centuries as we look at them now.

Yes good point.
Andy

[Bill]

Andy
Could you please post a photograph of it?
Cheers
Bill

[Toby Purcell]

I have a hunch that I might know what you're thinking Bill. Could it be a badge from the field cap of Royal Horse Guards?

[grenadierguardsman]

Here you go Bill, size's are from L to R. 43mm/43mm. 44mm/44mm. 45mm/45mm.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I have a hunch that I might know what you're thinking Bill. Could it be a badge from the field cap of Royal Horse Guards?

I think i know what his thinking.....But the apostrophe is missing on these cap stars. I believe the apostrophe is what makes the silver gilt and enamel cap stars, belong to the Royal Horse Guards ?
Andy

[KLR]

I don't know much about the Guards and nothing about before 1881
BUT
There is a massive pattern book of Bent & Parker's somewhere at the NAM, but i think it was just officer's insignia. They assembled and photocopied the data into each regiment - I copied the King's images which went back to the 1830s. There must be a big section on the Guards. Also the Guards Museum??

Sadly we won't be going to any museums for a wee while - (I'm on furlough from my museum) and i had intended to go to the B'ham mus to look up Gaunt archives (which includes B&P, J&Co etc).

[grenadierguardsman]

Nothing at the Guards Museum unfortunately, but id be interested to see that Bent & Parker info. Apprently the NAM has sealed pattern info at their storage place in Stevenage, im waiting to go.
Andy