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#16
16-09-08, 01:07 PM
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Cheers Mike 
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#18
16-09-08, 10:43 PM
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The first version was an 'optional' item of dress that could be purchased for 'cycling' when out of barracks, a kind of 'mobile walking out dress' approved for wear 'around about' the turn of the 20th century. As it was optional it had to be paid for by the soldier himself and was not issued at public expense (i.e. using tax payers money). The second iteration was in 1937 when 'someone' in authority thought it was a good 'option' for issue to the non-Household troops (i.e. other than Foot and Horse Guards) engaged in street lining and other duties for the Coronation of that year. This was because Full Dress had been removed from these troops as a cost saving measure in 1914 and never re-issued. It is this version that your man is wearing and he may well have been part of the 'street lining party' that every single line regiment contributed to and to whom the uniform was issued. The third iteration was for the current Queen's coronation in 1953 when again someone looked back to the previous Coronation and made the point that a smarter uniform than khaki battledress was required. This last pattern differed in that it had coloured piping indicating the arm of service/regimental facings of those who wore it around the outside of the shoulder strap only and the trousers had varying colours and width of stripe down the outer seam. This version was later decreed as 'Sergeants' Mess Dress' at public expense but was rarely if ever worn in that capacity, as the RSMs who presided over the messes insisted that members purchase at their own expense the richer looking Mess Uniform (so-called 'Kit') that in more prosperous times had been worn for mess dinners. Nevertheless, the expedient of this 'at public expense requirement' was used to gather 2 'pools' of this clothing, one at London and one at Edinburgh for use by those not in the Household Division but engaged in ceremonial duties. This last pattern is known as No1 Dress Blues and is still used today for ceremonial duties but it is also very popular for those soldiers who wish to marry in uniform. Last edited by Toby Purcell; 19-09-08 at 03:00 PM.
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#19
17-09-08, 01:57 AM
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This is a photo of my very dear Granddad, so I believe we must be cousins of sorts! It is correct that his grave states he was a Captain in the Royal Engineers, but it is my understanding he received a higher rank while in battle in Africa. Need to check on that to be sure though.
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#22
18-09-08, 06:15 AM
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Hello Mike
This is the Army Flying Badge - worn by qualified glider pilots. This was worn by first pilot's. A different badge was introduced for second pilots. Of course, it was also worn by Royal Artillery Air Observation Post pilots. Regards Douglas
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#23
18-09-08, 06:21 AM
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Well no, not by RA AOP pilots. They had a special badge, a winged RA grenade.
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#25
18-09-08, 03:29 PM
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Here's an example of a wartime AOP's BD blouse: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=280260658964
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#26
18-09-08, 03:56 PM
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I am sorry to rain on your parade but this story needs to have the same intellectual rigour applied to it as our medal collecting or family history friends would.
It's a great family story but I don't think it adds up. Most of the facts stated can be more or less easily checked. 1. His pre-war service record can be obtained from the MOD. You get a disclosure form, fill it in, pay a fee and wait. At the same time you could apply to the Army Medals office for his medals. They have probably already been issued but part of the process of checking is to discover what medals he was entitled to; and that will tell you if he served in Africa - or indeed France. 2. Dunkirk must the most written up episode of British military history. All the little ships and their crews are known, identified and accounted for. The standard references need careful checking. 3. His re-enlistment, subsequent commissioning and death will be confirmed by 1 above. As will his service as a glider pilot. The Institution of Royal Engineers, Brompton Barracks, Chatham, Kent, ME4 4UG, Tel: 01634 822035, have a complete list of all Royal Engineers officers, their careers, decorations, promotions and deaths. 4. Which division did the various Yorks and Lancs battalions serve in? !st or 8th Army? Does that cross check with operational service in North Africa. 5. He spoke fluent German and Arabic. How? When did he learn them? Very few ORs ever learned more than how to ask for more beer. The army didn't teach them. Arabic in particular is a very difficult language to become fluent in. 6. He returned to the UK in early 1944 and was an officer glider pilot on D Day. Hardly likely unless he was already a fully trained glider pilot and he would have had to transfer to the Glider Pilot Regiment. Incidentally most of the pilots survived and were back in the UK ready to go again on the evening of D Day. 7. He was awarded the Military Cross. There's no mention of that on his headstone and there usually is. And you'd need to find the London Gazette notice. 8. He was promoted to major (after his death). Not likely. Again you need a Gazette notice. 9. And is this one man or two? Does the date of birth recorded by the CWGC accorded with a 1922 enlistment, i.e. about 1904. Lots of very exciting research there. Good hunting. I do so hope it's all true. Eddie Last edited by Eddie Parks; 18-09-08 at 04:38 PM.
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#27
18-09-08, 05:01 PM
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As a first hint, there's a Walter Race born early in 1901 at 14 Bath Street, Bramley, Yorkshire, father's name William. Is that him?
Sadly as I've just discovered the CWGC doesn't know how old Captain Race was! Blow! Best of luck, Eddie
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#28
19-09-08, 07:03 AM
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Hi thanks for all the refrences eddie! A cousin of mine from australia actually has his records! Great news, so he is sending me a copy. I will still use the contacts you have given me and see what else i can dig up about the amazing chap. Im am very confident he was a glider pilot as my grandad recalls seeing his wings under his tinuc, and upon asking walter what they were he replied, "something i cant tell you about". I also knew that he flew to caen, would this have been the pegasus bridge mission (surely there are records of these men, as this was pretty famous)
Walter was born in 1904 and his father was Martin, i have already found a birth record for him. I think he was 40 - 41 depending on his DOB (obviously) As for the Major Ranking, at 1st my grandfather told me this, but upon seeing his grave stone he just thought he had heard wrong, but on speaking to another relative she said the same thing, so there may be a slight amount of truth. Thanks for the help Rgds Mike
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#29
19-09-08, 10:58 AM
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It's not necessarily the Orme River Bridges operation. The whole airborne division - with hundreds of gliders - landed on the northern side of the Orme river between Caen and the sea. That's why the bridges were so very important. I've just disposed of my relevant books but I am pretty certain I don't recall his name as one of the six pilots on the bridges operation.
I am afraid I remain very sceptical about the glider pilot story. I've interviewed hundreds of D-Day veterans including dozens of glider pilots and it doesn't gell. But I still hope it's true.
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