Rank of Staff QuarterMaster Sergeant

Originally Posted by johnG

Thanks Marc. Of course I knew me old pal PJ was right, and sorry if I took it the wrong way. I know I went off track with the thread, so I have a guilty conscience, but talking to like minded people on this forum is one of my few outlets when I can go for days without actually speaking to anybody, unless it is to swear at my computer. Ask PJ....he regularly comes in for a right ear-bashing from me, bless him.

Best wishes,

john

Edited to add an Easter message. "Blessed are the peace makers......."

John,

You just keep those 'ear-bashings' coming mate. Always a pleasure.

PJ

[54Bty]

No problem John.
Marc

Staff QMS

In 1881 all Quartermaster Sergeants (Staff Sergeants 1st Class) were to wear a 4 bar chevron point upwards below the elbow, for some addition badges were worn above the chevrons depending on the Corps. The appointment of Staff QMS could be that held by the Senior NCO in charge of the Pay Office.
The publication mentioned by 'Grumpy' is not all that easy to read and comprehend, so I hope that the above is of help. Rank badges changed again in 1915 and 1918.
Marc

[grumpy]

From the web:

In 1878, the Army Pay Department (APD) was established comprising officers from the Control Department and Regimental Paymasters. Pay departments were established at each of the 69 Brigade Depots and in 1893, the military clerks who assisted the officers were formed into the Army Pay Corps (APC). Although under different names the APD and APC formed one branch of the service.
In 1912 the Clayton Committee recommended that pay administration should be based on a two-tier system with Regimental Officers in units paying their men and Paymasters keeping the permanent accounts in Fixed Centre Pay Offices (FCPOs). This system was firmly in place by the First World War but the increase in work and diversion of young men to the Front resulted in poor staffing levels at the APD (approximately 170) and the APC (approximately 400) and the recruitment of women war workers.

SO......

we are looking at post 1893, are we not?

and

The original question was;

What badge of Rank would a Staff Quartermaster Sergeant in the Army Pay Corps circa 1890 have worn

so I will think on, as they say.

[davec2]

Although an intriguing thread, can I ask a question of my own please ?

Not related to RCN's original question but highlighted by Peter J's response in post #4 where a Master Gunner Class 1, Royal Artillary is shown, it is somewhat different to the badge in my collection and I wondered if anyone knew ( Marc perhaps ), when the one shown ceased to be worn and the one I have, started to be worn.

Dave.

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by davec2

Although an intriguing thread, can I ask a question of my own please ?

Not related to RCN's original question but highlighted by Peter J's response in post #4 where a Master Gunner Class 1, Royal Artillary is shown, it is somewhat different to the badge in my collection and I wondered if anyone knew ( Marc perhaps ), when the one shown ceased to be worn and the one I have, started to be worn.

Dave.

1918.

Marc

[davec2]

Cheers Marc,

As usual, you're a star

dave.

[RCN]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

No problem John.
Marc

Staff QMS

In 1881 all Quartermaster Sergeants (Staff Sergeants 1st Class) were to wear a 4 bar chevron point upwards below the elbow, for some addition badges were worn above the chevrons depending on the Corps. The appointment of Staff QMS could be that held by the Senior NCO in charge of the Pay Office.
The publication mentioned by 'Grumpy' is not all that easy to read and comprehend, so I hope that the above is of help. Rank badges changed again in 1915 and 1918.
Marc

Thanks you Marc, this is what I suspected from the posts, insignia charts & responses above.

I think now if someone might give me an idea of what kind of device he might have worn above the 4 chevrons (I am thinking it possibly might have been the star that Peter has illustrated in the charts he posted)
then I would have it together.

& I would like to thank the many members that 'weighed in' with opinions.
I know I have learned a lot from the responses made.

I thought originally I might receive a simple - "well he would have worn 'such & such' a badge(s)", but the responses seem to have grown to something much more than that.

I have a large collection of the 'Navy & Army Illustrated' magazines from the late 19th C so I will have to go thru them & see if I can find soldier(s) illustrated specific to the Victorian times APC & ASC. Perhaps the solution lies therein as many of the regiments are photo'd in the volumes.
Actually these are a superb publication & beautifully done!

Soooooo, if in due time I find something I will post..............

Bryan

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by RCN

I think now if someone might give me an idea of what kind of device he might have worn above the 4 chevrons (I am thinking it possibly might have been the star
Bryan[/COLOR]

Bryan,

I doubt it would be the star as this was specific to the Regimental Quartermasters. We will have to wait for a more informed reply from 'Grumpy'.

Marc

[grumpy]

Trouble is, I don't know anything worth telling about the APC.

"did they have a sergeant-major". The answer is, yes, and pre-1915 post 1904 he had the crown within a wreath [Clothing Regs 1904] as his badge of rank .... I cannot see the APC with a band, so no WO bandmaster, nor a school, so no schoolmaster, so that might make the S-M the only WO at unit level. [Whatever "unit" means in the APC!].

The next universal army rank [RANK not APPOINTMENT] down from WO [ie not holding Warrant rank] was called Quartermaster sergeant, of which there were all sorts and conditions throughout the army, usually a couple in an infantry battalion, one appointed RQMS and adding the 8 point star to his 4 chevrons, the other the Orderly Room QMS [different titles in different regiments .... chief clerk was the role] who made do with only the 4 chevrons.

Scattered throughout the corps and regiments were myriads of other APPOINTMENTS, many of which carried an extra and relevant badge.

I cannot for the life of me find a relevant badge in the panoply which the army had invented by 1915: horseshoes, bits, crossed rifles, wheels, etc etc.

If pressed [and bearing in mind the nearest comparator might be orderly room chief clerk] I would go for the 4 chevrons on their own.

As ever, I look forward to being wrong, so as to add to the sum of human knowledge!

As a hedge-bet, if the APC was uppity [..... he who pays the piper ....] , he might just have got away with the crown, as his superior had the additional wreath.

[johnG]

Great stuff Grumpy, and I am reminded of the fact that the ORQMS I had in mind did in fact describe himself on occasions as 'Chief Clerk' in the Orderly Room.. Thank you for explaining it so well.
John

[David Tremain]

Thanks Peter. I think that's the one offered by the National Archives at Kew. Must order a copy some time. David

[cossack]

Originally Posted by RCN

Thanks you Marc, this is what I suspected from the posts, insignia charts & responses above.

I think now if someone might give me an idea of what kind of device he might have worn above the 4 chevrons (I am thinking it possibly might have been the star that Peter has illustrated in the charts he posted)
then I would have it together.

& I would like to thank the many members that 'weighed in' with opinions.
I know I have learned a lot from the responses made.

I thought originally I might receive a simple - "well he would have worn 'such & such' a badge(s)", but the responses seem to have grown to something much more than that.

I have a large collection of the 'Navy & Army Illustrated' magazines from the late 19th C so I will have to go thru them & see if I can find soldier(s) illustrated specific to the Victorian times APC & ASC. Perhaps the solution lies therein as many of the regiments are photo'd in the volumes.
Actually these are a superb publication & beautifully done!

Soooooo, if in due time I find something I will post..............

Bryan

Hi Bryan,
I would be very interested if you come across any pictures of RMLI musketry instructors from that period. Please let me know if you find anything!
Regards....Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by cossack

Hi Bryan,
I would be very interested if you come across any pictures of RMLI musketry instructors from that period. Please let me know if you find anything!
Regards....Andy

Hi Andy, I thought I had already answered this question for you. Here is the RMLI chart.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

Trouble is, I don't know anything worth telling about the APC.

"did they have a sergeant-major". The answer is, yes, and pre-1915 post 1904 he had the crown within a wreath [Clothing Regs 1904] as his badge of rank .... I cannot see the APC with a band, so no WO bandmaster, nor a school, so no schoolmaster, so that might make the S-M the only WO at unit level. [Whatever "unit" means in the APC!].

The next universal army rank [RANK not APPOINTMENT] down from WO [ie not holding Warrant rank] was called Quartermaster sergeant, of which there were all sorts and conditions throughout the army, usually a couple in an infantry battalion, one appointed RQMS and adding the 8 point star to his 4 chevrons, the other the Orderly Room QMS [different titles in different regiments .... chief clerk was the role] who made do with only the 4 chevrons.

Scattered throughout the corps and regiments were myriads of other APPOINTMENTS, many of which carried an extra and relevant badge.

I cannot for the life of me find a relevant badge in the panoply which the army had invented by 1915: horseshoes, bits, crossed rifles, wheels, etc etc.

If pressed [and bearing in mind the nearest comparator might be orderly room chief clerk] I would go for the 4 chevrons on their own.

As ever, I look forward to being wrong, so as to add to the sum of human knowledge!

As a hedge-bet, if the APC was uppity [..... he who pays the piper ....] , he might just have got away with the crown, as his superior had the additional wreath.

Only just seen this Grumpy. For what it's worth I think you have it right with the 4 chevrons as that was the 'basic' badge for all QMS as 54Bty has said and, as you have mentioned, various embellishments were added to that depending on role and specialisation. In 1890 there was no APC as you have said and the APD was staffed entirely by officers. There was however a small and stand alone Corps of Military Staff Clerks (later merged into the AOC) and it is from these that the clerks supporting the APD would have been found. Little is recorded of the Corps of Military Staff Clerks but they would have had their own dress regulations just like any other branch of the service. I do feel that your 'hedge bet' of a S-QMS wearing a crown alone is a non-starter and it is more likely that they had the 4 chevrons in line with all QMS as you initially stated.

[RCN]

Originally Posted by cossack

Hi Bryan,
I would be very interested if you come across any pictures of RMLI musketry instructors from that period. Please let me know if you find anything!
Regards....Andy

Hi Andy,

I have a photo of an RMLI Gunnery Serg't taken in the 1930's if that helps, so I will attach it. He wears Crossed guns, Crown above Star below, similar to the RN Gummer's Mate rate badge.

If I locate any from the Victorian period in the 'Navy & Army Illustrated' I will scan & post. Not all of the volumes have index tho, so have to go thru them individually & I have 12 vols!

Bryan