Attempt to ID the Firmin Imperial Service Badge

[Jelly Terror]

GGA J8.jpg

Alternative Lambourne variant showing some of the characteristics of the die:

1) faults far left and right, where letters meet edges of the border (circled in yellow)
2) small indentation to lower curved section of right leg of 'R' in 'SERVICE' (circled in red)
3) 'shadow' next to upper left hand side of letter 'S' in 'SERVICE' (green box)

Images: Tim GGA, and Jack8.

JT

[dumdum]

Hi JT

Thanks for your reply and ongoing chat.

The enameled badge is definitely bronze and would be the one that mike_vee posted a photo of as I got it from the chap who bought it off eBay! It has the raised Lambourne back stamp and that hinge and catch are a little different.

Having taken another closer look at it, I can see that there are subtle traces of a gilt wash to it so it would have been originally enameled with a gilt finish.

I have also noticed that it displays a very gentle curve to the body of the badge which must have been done when it was made as the slightest attempt to curve a badge will result in tears before bedtime...I know this pain.

If this has aroused your interest, I will post some better photos of it.

In the meantime here is a photo of the incuse backstamped Lambourne badge alongside another one that surfaced. No markings and sorry for the photo that was taken down a coalmine on a dark night...

Note the difference in the crown sizes.

[dumdum]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Attachment 285716

Alternative Lambourne variant showing some of the characteristics of the die:

1) faults far left and right, where letters meet edges of the border (circled in yellow)
2) small indentation to lower curved section of right leg of 'R' in 'SERVICE' (circled in red)
3) 'shadow' next to upper left hand side of letter 'S' in 'SERVICE' (green box)

Images: Tim GGA, and Jack8.

JT

Hi JT

Yes, those dies have sure done some work! Those are die cracks and the original die was probably held together with a fairly large heat shrunk ring...

It would have been a real monster to behold but arguably easier than making a new die which they would have had to do anyway but it did postpone the inevitable I guess.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by dumdum

Hi JT

Thanks for your reply and ongoing chat.

The enameled badge is definitely bronze and would be the one that mike_vee posted a photo of as I got it from the chap who bought it off eBay! It has the raised Lambourne back stamp and that hinge and catch are a little different.

Having taken another closer look at it, I can see that there are subtle traces of a gilt wash to it so it would have been originally enameled with a gilt finish.

I have also noticed that it displays a very gentle curve to the body of the badge which must have been done when it was made as the slightest attempt to curve a badge will result in tears before bedtime...I know this pain.

If this has aroused your interest, I will post some better photos of it.

In the meantime here is a photo of the incuse backstamped Lambourne badge alongside another one that surfaced. No markings and sorry for the photo that was taken down a coalmine on a dark night...

Note the difference in the crown sizes.

Haaaa! Those ARE pretty dark photos . Appreciate your posting them though. Yes, crown size difference duly noted. Lambourne ISB crowns are distinctively flatter than most other variants’ crowns. Suttle ISBs being another.

I’d be grateful of further photos of the enamelled badge, if not too much trouble. Thank you. As I have stated previously within other threads on this subject, we see non-white-metal ISBs in circulation; they are there for us to speculate upon, but as yet I have encountered no documentary evidence in support of them ever having been officially sanctioned/manufactured/issued.

I do not contest the point that non-white-metal badges could have been ‘official’ (whichever way you wish to define that word) and could have been worn, but I am not taking anything on faith. I feel compelled to go where the evidence leads, and to date I have encountered nothing persuasive in support of that stance.

It’s an interesting subject though (ANORAK ALERT!)

JT

[grey_green_acorn]

Here are some more pictures of my Lambourne badges for further analysis.

Tim

[dumdum]

Hi JT

This is what the Forum is all about as far as I am concerned! Several members have solved small (and not so small) puzzles for me since I "joined up".

More than happy to spend a bit more time taking better photos of the enamel badge.

There are several key points of difference with this badge that suggest something less than for official wear:

1. The use of bronze as a material (probably gilding metal to be precise)

2. The fact that it is enameled and gilt

3. The curve to the body of the badge

4. The catches - the hinge and hook are more reminiscent of an item of
jewellery or an association badge.

My wife will say: "what are you doing?" to which I reply..."taking photos..."

Any thoughts on the incuse Lambourne mark? To be honest, I didn't realise that it was in this style but only when I ran a thumb over it, I noticed that there weren't any raised letters.

And if you can add to my basic knowledge of this badge - was there a "piece of paper" that went with its issue? Was white metal chosen because this was the traditional material for volunteer badges as I understand it?

Many thanks as always!

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

Here are some more pictures of my Lambourne badges for further analysis.

Tim

Thanks, Tim. I'm happily beginning now to realise that this quest is going to take a a little more time and effort than I had at first anticipated. Looking forward to the challenge.

Regards,

JT

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by dumdum

Hi JT

This is what the Forum is all about as far as I am concerned! Several members have solved small (and not so small) puzzles for me since I "joined up".

More than happy to spend a bit more time taking better photos of the enamel badge.

There are several key points of difference with this badge that suggest something less than for official wear:

1. The use of bronze as a material (probably gilding metal to be precise)

2. The fact that it is enameled and gilt

3. The curve to the body of the badge

4. The catches - the hinge and hook are more reminiscent of an item of
jewellery or an association badge.

My wife will say: "what are you doing?" to which I reply..."taking photos..."

Any thoughts on the incuse Lambourne mark? To be honest, I didn't realise that it was in this style but only when I ran a thumb over it, I noticed that there weren't any raised letters.

And if you can add to my basic knowledge of this badge - was there a "piece of paper" that went with its issue? Was white metal chosen because this was the traditional material for volunteer badges as I understand it?

Many thanks as always!

Great stuff, DD.

I agree with your thoughts as to the intended purpose of the enameled badge. The constituent metal and the brooch fitting are incongruous with what we know and commonly see with official/issued ISBs.

I have not come across any instances of, or references to, a 'piece of paper' accompanying its presentation. Most of what I know of this badge is recorded within my ISB forum album HERE.

German Silver was chosen purely on the decision of Edward VII. The samples presented to the King for selection and approval had been made by Jennens & Co. My research to date indicates that there were six white-metal examples in total for him to choose from, three of which had been artificially coloured to resemble brass. His preference was, of course, the white-metal/German Silver examples we see today. During the period of the badge's inception, the then Secretary of State, proposed that the King reconsider his initial approval for the badge to be German Silver, for a bronze version instead. However, the King was disinclined to do so, and his intial choice of German silver stood.

As for the Lambourne 'stamp', I am afraid my knowledge of this firm's various maker marks is hideously scant. I am intending to research and record all the versions of their mark I encounter on ISBs (which will of course be no quick job). Until then, hopefully the forum's Lambourne aficionados might be able to assist, should they happen to swing by this thread.

Regards,

JT

[dumdum]

Hi JT

Here are the photos of the enameled "mystery" plus a couple of better pics of the "big crown" ISB, with better lighting.

Hope this helps to add to the identification of further examples!

[dumdum]

Hi JT

Have sorted out yet ANOTHER ISB. Probably not much point in posting a pic of it (unless you want me to) as it looks like the usual Lambourne example but the interesting bit is that the raised backstamp is quite a way over to the left of the badge almost obscured by the catch. Lettering to the front of the badge perfectly aligned with no dropped letters.

I see your album has some great images of men (and a woman!) wearing their ISBs.

Have you got one of a Scot wearing "trews"? I posted one way back but can't seem to locate it in my past posts but I can photograph it again for you if you'd like me to. You can then add it to your rogue's gallery with my blessing!

[dumdum]

Hi JT

You've just got to admire the Forum...a bit of digging and I found my photo going back to '21.

You'll see that my usual high standards in photography are in evidence but if you'd like, I make a MUCH better job of this next time for you!

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by dumdum

Hi JT

Have sorted out yet ANOTHER ISB. Probably not much point in posting a pic of it (unless you want me to) as it looks like the usual Lambourne example but the interesting bit is that the raised backstamp is quite a way over to the left of the badge almost obscured by the catch. Lettering to the front of the badge perfectly aligned with no dropped letters.

I see your album has some great images of men (and a woman!) wearing their ISBs.

Have you got one of a Scot wearing "trews"? I posted one way back but can't seem to locate it in my past posts but I can photograph it again for you if you'd like me to. You can then add it to your rogue's gallery with my blessing!

I must go through my ISB photos. Not sure what I have, and what I don't. Appreciate the pic. Thank you.

JT

[dumdum]

Hi JT

No worries. I will take a better, less "artistic", pic for you!