Butcher badge

[nbroadarrowz]

Does anyone have a trade badge of a Butcher?
Thanks
Barry

[royston]

Hi Barry

I've never seen such a badge and certainly it is not listed, possibly an unofficial badge in the early 20th Century, rather like the tale of the Rat Catcher in the Royal Naval Barracks, Portsmouth.

However, I have come across 1WW photographs of RN ratings wearing unlisted badges, but in a few instances I have the badge to prove that it existed, such as the RN despatch Rider, and a Royal Naval Motorboat Reserve MBR with prop' badge.
I also have a photograph of a RNAS rating wearing a badge I have not been able to identify, see attached photograph, So maybe there is one out there.

[CAM]

There was a thread on the Forum a while back re an ASC unofficial WW1 era badge - I cannot remember whether it was for Butcher or Baker. But I cannot find the trhread.

(No quips re Candlestick Maker thank you!)

Chris

[leigh kitchen]

I think it was ASC Butcher.
https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...hlight=Butcher

[nbroadarrowz]

AFO 2361 of 1931 introduced new Accountant branch badges for wear by Writers, Supply Ratings, Cooks, Officers' Stewards, Officers Cooks and Butchers.
The badge pattern numbers for the Butcher were 140, 140A and 140B.
I assume that the Butcher badge is in the same design as the known Accountant branch badges of a six-point star but with a B in the centre.

AFO 1678 of July 1938 introduced the new Gunnery branch categories which consisted of badge series 140 to 163 and so the Butcher badge was renumbered to series 170.

I am not sure if the badges were made in X patterns during the war.

Barry

[CAM]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

I think it was ASC Butcher.
https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...hlight=Butcher

That’s the one I was thinking of Leigh

Chris

[royston]

I can find no star badge with a B in the centre listed anywhere and, certainly, in my 33 years in the RN up to 1993, and as a collector of RN badges, was there anything remotely like that. I can only assume that a butcher would wear the badge of a star with a V in the centre for Victualling.

[mike_vee]

Originally Posted by royston

I can find no star badge with a B in the centre listed anywhere and, certainly, in my 33 years in the RN up to 1993, and as a collector of RN badges, was there anything remotely like that. I can only assume that a butcher would wear the badge of a star with a V in the centre for Victualling.

This is an interesting thread !

A couple of bits of info I've found :

Accountant Branch
The Ship's Steward ratings were changed to Victualling ratings in early 1918. Their primary responsibility was keeping accounts for food supplies, while the Writer ratings handled most other pay and personnel record-keeping and correspondance.

But the 1931 Orders speifically mentions Butchers.

A book about the Air Branch of the Royal Navy does mention the 'star' badges including the " Victualling" one but it appears to be more of a 'storeman/supplies' rank .

Useless fact :
In March 1997 the Royal Yacht Britannia stopped for an "Informal visit/fuel" at Phuket Thailand while I was there on holiday. My mate , an ex -RM Sergeant Major , and I ended up 'socialising' (getting drunk ! ) with some of the crew including an R.M who served as the Royal Yacht's butcher !

.

[royston]

It is interesting that the AFO, shown above. is for the R.A.N and they may well have had a specific Butchers badge as opposed to the RN. I can, vagally, remember someone was mentioned as the ship's butcher in the early '60s but again did he have a specific badge? I have not come across any reference to one in the RN and have never seen one.
It would be interesting to follow up the R.A.N. AFO reference, since it does give a pattern number. There was some divergence of branch badges between "Commonwealth" countries which followed the RN traditions.

[mike_vee]

Royal Australian Navy had a "Butcher Branch" :

Supply and Secretariat

The Supply and Secretariat Branch and its predecessors include writers (clerks), cooks, stewards, naval stores and victualling supply staff.
Butcher Branch, Baker Branch, Printer Branch, Coding Branch

https://www.awm.gov.au/learn/underst...-structure/ran

Also found an article from June 2021:

A butcher's hook at old stomping ground

served from the 1950s to the cessation of the butchers branch in the late 1970s

https://www.defence.gov.au/news-even...tomping-ground

The article shows "a butchers rate badge" which is a star with a B in the middle.


.

[mike_vee]

From Australian Government web page:

Amendment of Naval Financial Regulations.

(Statutory Rules 1924, No. 34, as amended to present date.)

(Ninth Amendment.)

1. Regulation 23, sub-regulation (1), is amended by altering the titles in the Butcher Branch as follows:—

Butcher, 3rd Class, to be termed Butcher.

Butcher, 2nd Class, to be termed Leading Butcher.

Butcher, 1st Class to be termed Petty Officer Butcher.

Chief Butcher to be termed Chief Petty Officer Butcher.

https://www.legislation.gov.au/C1925L00187/asmade/text


.

[nbroadarrowz]

Admiralty Fleet Orders were issued by the RN but both Australia and New Zealand followed them (as well as other Commonwealth countries).
In New Zealand we had New Zealand Naval Orders while in Australia they had Commonwealth Naval Orders (Commonwealth of Australia not the wider Commonwealth).
Both NZNOs and CNOs mention AFOs in whole, part and/or as a foot note reference as well as introducing country specific orders.
So, any AFO is specific to the RN but were closely followed by other Commonwealth navies.

The AFOs, NZNOs and CNOs are considered primary source reference material and should be referenced where possible. The AFOs can be found here https://seapower.navy.gov.au/media-r...y-fleet-orders
Commonwealth Naval Orders can be found here https://seapower.navy.gov.au/media-r...h-naval-orders
The NZNO have not been digitised but I have copies of all relevant pages.

The list of badges in post 8 is Commonwealth Navy Order 175/1933 which references AFO 2361 of 1931.
For those interested the other badges mentioned in CNO175/1933 are series badges 40 (Star badge for Writers and Cooks) and 224 (Disc badge for Officers' Cooks and Stewards).

So, a Butchers branch was introduced into the RN in 1931 and shortly after this their pattern numbered badges of a six-pointed star with a B in the centre were introduced.

Barry

[royston]

Hi Barry

Very interesting. The badge has never, as far as I am aware, appeared in any UK RN publication list of badges and in all my years of collecting RN badges I have never seen one or an illustration. I will have to investigate.

John

[Antrim82]

THE RAN had a separate trade of Butcher prior to 1931 and this continued until 1963 when CNO 102/63 announced that it was to be allowed to die out and existing members allowed to transfer to the Victualling Trade. The branch badge in 1963 being the star with B inside as adopted in 1933.

The use of pattern 140 for the Butchers badge would appear to be RAN specific as it allowed them to simply extend to the range of RN designs to allow for the creation of a Butcher by using the next spare pattern number in the series.

The problem with assuming this was the same in the RN and thereby indicates the creation of a Butchers Rate in 1931, is that Pattern 140 was used for the Quarters Rating 1st Class CPO's badges created as part of the new series of Gunnery Badges introduced in 1939. No mention is made in AFO's at the time of any reallocation of the number from the Butchers Trade and the contemporary clothing lists do not mention any such trade. The Accountant Branch pattern numbers stopping at 139.

In Australia however CNO 120/39 Butchers Badges notes

The pattern numbers for badges for Butcher ratings have been amended
to 170 (gold), 170A (red), and 170B (blue), pattern number 140 series having
been included in the new badges for Gunnery ratings.

CNO121/39 Then covers the new Gunnery Badges

Pattern 170 was then used by the RN for TAS Instructor/Torpedo Detector 1st class in 1946. The RAN as a result had to move the Butchers badge once again but this time tried a different solution in that CNO279/47 moved the Butchers badge to Pattern 137 which is the same basic pattern number as the Cooks badge but added them to the end of the existing series as 137c (gold) 137d (red) 137e (blue).

In summary it seems to be a RAN specific badge squatting in various pattern numbers unused by the RN.

A interesting aside is that Butcher is one of the sub trades listed for the WRNS Steward (General) in WW2 but the badge worn was the Star with G not B.

[royston]

Many thanks Antrim82. Good research. That is, hopefully the definitive answer to the Butchers badge. I collected all RN badges until 2018 but they got so numerous as there seemed to be a new design every few months and with the latest badges some, such as Mine Warfare, have reverted to an earlier design. I now specialize.