British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Photographs of British Servicemen and Women Wearing Insignia

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 28-08-22, 01:03 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,724
Default Coldstream Guards cap star pill box hat

An undated cabinet card but likely to be Victorian as the bandman is wearing the Pill Box hat that was replaced circa 1900-05 with the New Pattern peakless Guards (Brodrick) cap.

The cap star's arms are clearly curved unlike the right angled badge shown in K&K and attributed to the 1900-05 hat.

This raises some questions about that attribution if this photo is pre 1900 then one does ask why the change in design for the NP hat especially as it is not recorded as a sealed pattern itself.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2022-07-02 5.24.29 PM.jpg (76.3 KB, 73 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 28-08-22, 01:36 PM
grenadierguardsman's Avatar
grenadierguardsman grenadierguardsman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 3,899
Default

Alan, I don't see what you mean reference the cap star ? I dislike the use of " Brodrick " and the Guards. The Brodrick cap and the Peakless forage cap in my opinion are totally different, similar perhaps. But only in shape.
Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 28-08-22, 02:44 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,724
Default

Andy

I totally agree with you about the use of Brodrick hence the brackets.

In K&K the show 900 as the 1902-05 badge for the Guards NP cap whilst 901 as the post 1905 badge.

In the photo above the pill box hat suggests pre 1905: albeit Bandsmen's badges are often different fro ORs. Yet the badge does not have the right angle arms of the cross of K&K 900 but the curved ones of 901.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2022-08-28 3.40.32 PM.jpg (77.3 KB, 13 views)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 28-08-22, 03:00 PM
JerryBB's Avatar
JerryBB JerryBB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Wales
Posts: 5,018
Default

is he not a drummer rather than a bandsman? Very nice cdv.
__________________
Regards,

Jerry
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 28-08-22, 03:49 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,905
Default

I’m a bit confused. The supposed pre-1905 cap star shown in KK (KK900) doesn’t have right angled arms. It does however appear to lack segments to the rays, more akin to ASC badges.

Besides the example in KK I’ve never seen another one.

I’ve seen these ‘right-angled’ segmented cap stars with the flat brass stamped lugs typically seen on some Scottish badges so had assumed them to be wartime manufacturers variation.

That is unless I’ve missed something that’s been discovered somewhere with these and the ‘right-angle’…
Attached Images
File Type: jpg BA5E637A-1456-463D-B2B9-9371C467CB9E.jpg (103.1 KB, 15 views)

Last edited by Luke H; 28-08-22 at 03:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 28-08-22, 03:58 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,724
Default

https://britisharmybadges.com/shop.php?q=coldstream

Here is another example that was recently for sale as the 1902-05.

Having seen the CDV it would appear that it's likely to be a maker's variation rather than 1902-05.

I also suspect the K&K 901 is not a badge bespoke for the Guards NP hat either.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 28-08-22, 04:07 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,724
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryBB View Post
is he not a drummer rather than a bandsman? Very nice cdv.
Jerry

You are of course correct. So with that even more reason for him not to have a different cap star.

It is interesting that it's a West Country photographer. I saw another photo recently of a Boer War Coldstream returning home to a hamlet in Somerset and was surprised by that as it's not a traditional recruiting hotspot for the CG.

This is Corporal Walter Henry Parsons, brush maker, born Chard 1875 joined the Coldstream Guards on 7 Feb 1896 and declared he had previously served in 3rd Volunteer Battalion Devonshires. He was promoted Lance Sergeant in Dec 1900 in 3rd Bn CG. He served in South Africa 28 Oct 99 to 18 Dec 1900. The photo was taken on his homing to Nimmer near Chard circa 1901.

Alan
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Homecoming_photo.jpg (27.9 KB, 24 views)

Last edited by Alan O; 28-08-22 at 04:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 28-08-22, 04:15 PM
JerryBB's Avatar
JerryBB JerryBB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Wales
Posts: 5,018
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
Jerry

You are of course correct. So with that even more reason for him not to have a different cap star.

It is interesting that it's a West Country photographer. I saw another photo recently of a Boer War Coldstream returning home to a hamlet in Somerset and was surprised by that as it's not a traditional recruiting hotspot for the CG.

Alan
Alan, I have a Boer war pair for the Grenadier Guards to a man from Pontypridd, I not sure this was within their area, but then again it would be pre Welsh Guards so maybe anyone could try to get it, I believe they had to be tall but otherwise no idea of requirements.
__________________
Regards,

Jerry
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 28-08-22, 04:26 PM
CAM's Avatar
CAM CAM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire
Posts: 1,217
Default

Excuse my ignorance, CDV?

Chris
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 28-08-22, 04:38 PM
JerryBB's Avatar
JerryBB JerryBB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Wales
Posts: 5,018
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAM View Post
Excuse my ignorance, CDV?

Chris
Chris

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carte_de_visite
__________________
Regards,

Jerry
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 28-08-22, 04:41 PM
CAM's Avatar
CAM CAM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire
Posts: 1,217
Default

Thank you Jerry
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 28-08-22, 05:15 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,905
Default

Thanks Alan. To be honest looking at that badge I’m far from convinced it is of Edwardian vintage.

I’m still at bit of a loss as to where this has come from. Here is what my copy of KK says regarding the two badges in question, KK900 and KK901. No mention is made of shape of the star nor a ‘squarer pattern’.

If other editions say something different I’d be interested to see this.

For me it’s a makers variation and any claim these squarer star types were worn on the peak-less forage cap pre-1905 is not born out by KK nor any literature or photo I’ve ever seen.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 46A08CFD-C2D6-4D96-A2DF-02220DDAB684.jpg (64.5 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg 3A50C7F1-FF86-41B6-A696-E669BAF18C14.jpg (118.1 KB, 18 views)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 28-08-22, 05:46 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,724
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryBB View Post
Alan, I have a Boer war pair for the Grenadier Guards to a man from Pontypridd, I not sure this was within their area, but then again it would be pre Welsh Guards so maybe anyone could try to get it, I believe they had to be tall but otherwise no idea of requirements.
Jerry

I had not even thought of the absence of the WG being a thing for recruitment. I suppose at the time the Guards were seen as prestigous for a recruit to join.
Alan
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 28-08-22, 08:05 PM
grenadierguardsman's Avatar
grenadierguardsman grenadierguardsman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 3,899
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
I’m a bit confused. The supposed pre-1905 cap star shown in KK (KK900) doesn’t have right angled arms. It does however appear to lack segments to the rays, more akin to ASC badges.

Besides the example in KK I’ve never seen another one.

I’ve seen these ‘right-angled’ segmented cap stars with the flat brass stamped lugs typically seen on some Scottish badges so had assumed them to be wartime manufacturers variation.

That is unless I’ve missed something that’s been discovered somewhere with these and the ‘right-angle’…
Alan, I'll dig my Coldstream Guards badges out. I have a smaller style cap star that I believe is Victorian, I have seen one attributed to a group of medals seen online. I have another that is like the one you show, and is lugged N/S.....
Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please.

Last edited by grenadierguardsman; 28-08-22 at 08:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 28-08-22, 08:28 PM
grenadierguardsman's Avatar
grenadierguardsman grenadierguardsman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 3,899
Default


__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:39 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.